A CONFERENCE Between two Souldiers Meeting on the Roade the one being of the Army in ENGLAND The other of the Army in SCOTLAND As the one was comming from London the other from Edinbrough The first Part. November 1659. A Conference between two Souldiers Meeting on the Roade the one being of the Army in England the other of the Army in Scotland England WEll met fellow-souldier whence doe you come Scotland I come from Scotland Engl. What News from thence we heare you are beginning a new Warr. Scotl. No no what we doe is in pursuance of our good Old Cause to stand up for the Parliament which we heare you have forceably interrupted and turned out Engl. I pray you let us step aside and a little reason together What is that good Old Cause so much spoken of Were you a Souldier at the first beginning of the warr and can remember what was then Declared as the cause of our taking up Armes Scotl. Yes and then I went out for the preservation and defence of the true Protestant Religion the Kings Person the Priviledges of Parliament and the Laws and Liberties of the subject Engl. Let us passe by that of the Protestant Religion which was soon after left out of our Commissions for we needed not fight for a Religion but that we might enjoy Liberty to exercise our Religion How did you pursue the Cause Did you who are now the Army in Scotland consent to the taking away the Life of the King whom you were to defend who by the Laws of the Land was our Chief Ruler Scotl. Yes for when upon better information we found That Kings were made for the people and not the people for Kings That men are freeborn into the World and not any mans slaves that no man ought to have a Native and Hereditary Right over others But that the power under God is originally in the people and to be derived from thence and that all trusts are conditionall We beleeved that the King was as well bound to defend his people as his people were to be subject to him and that if he fayled of the one they were discharged of the other els the King might destroy them at his pleasure and finding that the King had betrayed his trust and endeavoured the ruine of his people we took our selves not onely bound to defend our selves against him but also to call him to an accompt as guilty of the highest crymes for destroying the end of his trust making his power an advantage to our ruine Engl. Then you were of our mind That the safety of the People is the supreme Law and therefore you consented to take away the King What did you for the Priviledges of Parliament Doe you not remember That there was an Act of Parliament to which the King consented as well as both Houses That the Parliament nor either House should not be dissolved without their own consents or an Act of Parliament to be passed for that purpose Did you not also consent to the taking away of the House of Lords which was one of the Houses of Parliament Scotl. When we found that the House of Lords as well as the King exercised an Authority by Prerogative over the people without their consent and deputation it was seen fit to lay them aside also as inconsistent with the peoples Liberties Engl. Was not this the highest breach of Parliament Priviledges not onely to interrupt but wholly to dissolve one of the Houses of Parliament and that not for one Session onely but for ever And I pray you when Kings and Lords were taken away which were two essentiall parts of the Parliament was not the Parliament then dissolved he being dead by whose Writs they were called which gave them the being of a Parliament and could live no longer then himselfe Scotl. No for the House of Commons could not be dissolved without their own consent and an Act to be passed for that purpose Engl. How could they be a Parliament which could doe no Act of a Parliament Or how could they be dissolved by an Act when no act of Parliament could be passed for it they had taken away the Lords who were to advise and the King who was to consent Scotl. It s very true and therefore they presently changed the Government and Declared themselves to be a Parliament without King or House of Lords Engl Did they not thereby dissolve themselves and cast off their former power And then from whom did they derive their new Authority the People onely chose them to goe up and to consider and advise of the great things of the Nation with the King and Lords and not to take all the power to themselves both the Legislative and Executive to doe what they list and as long as they pleased making the former Act of Parliament which had no such intention a colour for it But since you are so much for the House of Commons whether I pray did you consent to the turning out so many Members at severall times Scotl. Yes for we found that the honest party of the House who were for carrying on the good Old Cause were over-voted by a Major Party and we were forced to it or els our Cause had been lost Engl. And were not those most high breaches of the Priviledges of that House And how could the remaining party be called a free Parliament The People chose the whole Number and gave them power and after you had turned out whom you pleased should the People be bound by the rest were they the Peoples or not rather your Parliament But doe ye remember when those we called the honest Party came from the House to the Army and brought their Speaker with them and left the rest who over-voted them Did not you own the lesser Party and forthwith goe to London and turn out the other I pray by what Law was it done and whether if either party could be called a Parliament the lesser or the greater And whether did you not in 1653. consent to or afterward approve the turning out the remainder of the whole House Scotl. I must confesse we did so and were still forced to it for carrying on that Cause which we were called unto and tooke our selves bound in Conscience to prosecute for the defence of the Peoples Liberties Engl. Well It seems you grant that for the Liberty of the People you consented in stead of defending to destroy the Kings Person in stead of preserving Parliament Priviledges wholly to take away the House of Lords and over and over to interrupt and turn out the Members of the lower House and at last to end the sitting of the whole And I pray you Have not divers Elections been since made by the People which by an Act made by the King Lords and Commons they had power to doe make voyd and supercede all former Authority derived from them if any was in being Scotl. I am not fit to judge of these things But I
conceive they were a Parliament at lest till 1653. or a new Election But I dare not consent that they were dissolved any sooner for many dangerous consequences would follow and all Laws since made might be rendered invalid to the lesse of the whole Nation and many particular Persons Engl. They did not in this last Convention so well consider who at one breath as I may say by an Act thrice Read and Passed in one day made voyd whatsoever had been done from 1653 to 1659. without considering the weight and concernment thereof to the manifold dammage not onely of thousands of particular Persons but to the hazard of the Peace of the three Nations rendering the union of Scotland and this Nation invalid and opening a way for the Irish to return upon the English and turn them out of their Habitations in Ireland and thousands of other mischiefs which was one great reason necessitating the Army to put an end to their sitting But should I tell you that they were dissolved in 1648. it would neither reproach them nor diminish that power which they exercised in carrying on the work with us nor injure the Rights of the people And should I also say that all things done since the end of their former sitting in 1653. that are pursuant to the ends of our Cause are by as good Authority there will be no contradiction to those Principles which ye have walked by and must own as well as we as the warrant of our proceedings which will justifie us in the sight of God and in our own Consciences and in due time unto men Scotl. I confesse it was rashly done to passe such an Act But I pray goe on and tell me what other ground or necessity you had to dissolve them new for that is the great thing which dissaâ—isfieth us and which we cannot beare Engl. Though it might seem a strange thing to you yet we cannot but wonder that you who had joyned formerly in the like Acts of necessity with us nay we may say in much higher and knew the integrity of many thousands of your fellow-souldiers in England and their desires after Justice Righteousnesse and true Freedom should so hastily Publish a Declaration and not rather first send some honest and understanding men to us to be informed of the Grounds and Reasons of our Proceedings and should still persist and pursue your Declaration to the hazard of the Peace and raising a new War in these Nations which may make way for a third Party to divide the spoyle and lose the Fruit of all our Travells But to satisfie you further of our Grounds We that were upon the place and neer them found by dayly experience a heady Faction growing in the House who having a designe to engrosse all power into their own hands to make themselves absolute not onely to give what Laws they would to the people but to settle what Government they list and to perpetuate themselves during their pleasure who were but a very few of those that are interessed in the management and successe of the same Cause and ought to share with them and be as well satisfied in the settlement to be made First contrived to bring the Army to their will by causing them to take Commissions from their Speaker and then by raysing another Force made way to supplant them that so as any person should in the least crosse their designe or shew a dislike to any thing they did they might with a Vote of the House be layd aside upon the least Information of any Member without Hearing or Tryall though the matter was false which having carryed on they presently began to shew their further purpose reproved and gave a cheeque to the sober and modest Petitions of the Army a Priviledge that the meanest and fewest of the people clayme And without proofe or hearing pickes nine or ten of the Chief Assertors of our Liberties out of the Army and layes them aside and intended further to have proceeded with more as is too evident All which more fully appears by the Armies Plea and Declaration to which I refer you Scotl. But I pray you How can it be lawfull for the servant to rise up against his Master Did not you lately restore them to the power and acknowledge them and take Commissions at their Barr and receive their Pay Engl. That they were Masters and we their servants does not appear by our restoring them to the power but rather the contrary and that we might as well take it from them as give it to them when they abused it And as for our owning them to be a Power and receiving Commissions and Pay from them they had borne part with us in the heat of the day had councelled advised and acted with us as interessed in the same Cause and we were willing as they were the remaining persons that held out to the end of that Civill Authority which God had blessed with us in carrying on the work to take them along with us and as being a more popular way then any single person and more sutable then meerly the Power of the Sword and that which would give better content to the people till such an equall and just frame of Government could be setled as might fully answer the ends of our Warr and so great an expence of Blood and Treasure Yet give us leave to tell you We were no more servants then they we received Pay as being allowed to us that went a warfare for the people They also had Pay provided by Law proportionable to their Expences Are the Souldiers servants to their Officers because from their hands they receive their Pay Are the Officers servants to the Parliament because they are payd by their Order not out of their own but the peoples purses And are not the Members of Parliament as well servants to the people who have allowances provided for them Yea rather are not both the Parliament and Army servants to the People to preserve and defend them and their just Rights and Freedoms If therefore both Parliament and Army shall joyn to destroy the people May they not both with-hold their Pay and defend themselves against them if they can and the like against either Scotl. I doe not well understand this for the Parliament is the Body of the People and they Called and Commissionated the Army and payd them and therefore the Army are servants to the Parliament Engl. That the Parliament was the Body of the people we deny not and when it came to passe that a difference fell between the King and them they called to the people in effect thus We are your Trustees your Deputies you sent us â—â— hither to preserve and maintain your Rights the King hath highly violated many of them and still persisteth and by force will compell us to yeild to him Therefore come and assist us and stand up for your selves in your lawfull defence and for your liberties The people
rather esteemed the great Bulwarks of the peoples Freedomes which neither Kings nor Parliaments could alter And therefore upon this new Conquest over Monarchy we beleeve it is the duty of those to whom God hath given the Victory to see such Fundamentall Constitutions setled as are consonant to the Law of God and Principles of Justice and Righteousnesse and that just Freedom both as to the inward and outward man which belongs to every man as a Member of the Creation of God the great work that God hath been doing amongst us and will carry on and bring to passe in the whole Earth and to see the same so fortified and secured with provision against all kinds of violation that the people may be no more put to make a new purchase of it Scotl. Though you should come to a settlement that may have much good in it I cannot see how you can secure it the next Parliament will clayme an absolute power and will goe neer to alter it if it be but even to shew their Authority Engl. If such a spirit shall be in the Parliament as to alter good things setled How much further off would they be to lay such a Foundation and therefore such expedients must be used as will prevent that mischief and yet leave the Parliament Free which must be provided for in the Forme of Government Scotl. I pray what Government doe you intend to set up and seeing you clayme the right of Forming a Government what must others expect from you Engl. We that is to say the Army onely doe not clayme any such right But we that is to say the Body of the good people adhearents to this Cause in all the severall Nations who continue still faithfull thereunto whereof we are a part and in our Brethrens stead left to defend both them and our selves in prosecution of the work till it be finished doe make this clayme not that we desire to have the Government in our hands not that we desire the Sword should Rule not that we desire to abridge any other man of his Liberty or that he should be a slave much lesse a subject to us But we being called together in defence of those just rights in common which belong to us and every man in particular and having obtained successe to our just Cause We cannot we dare not lest not onely the ruine of our selves but also of our posterities and not onely so but the whole Nations whom God hath given it into our powers to preserve as well as our selves should be layd to our charge part a sunder nor suffer our selves to be divided till our Liberties and the Liberties of all men be secured Scotl. But still you will be Judges your selves Engl Our own innocency and integrity is that which justifies us in the fight of God from whom we have our strength who hath judged for us And it is not reasonable that we should stand at the Judgement Seat of our Enemies nor of those who have not known our Cause nor put their hands to carry it on Had all the people of England with one consent taken part with us there had been no such difference as to persons or interests But you know the greater part of the Nation were against us and if they might be Judges you as well as we understand what would be the issue though in our principles their Liberties as well as our own will be secured Scotl. I pray you tell me what those Principles are Engl. I may say in short all our Principles are summed up in one founded upon that just and righteous Rule wherein is fulfilled the whole Law and the Prophets As you would have men doe unto you even so doe ye unto them which includes in it the perfect Freedom of Conscience of Person and of Estate and which we onely waite and long to see established Scotl. If that be your Principle I hope we shall never differ for we doe with as much earnestnesse as your selves long to see such a Government and Laws setled as stand upon that Foundation And if we shall confesse that the late Assembly was no Parliament but that their authority is perfecty determined that you had good Reason and Right to end their sitting and ought to proceed to pursue the ends of the great cause of just Liberty It will not at all prejudice the rights of the people and I beleeve that generally the people would be as little satisfied as your selves to have that Assembly rule over them But yet these things seem strange and contrary to our ancient Laws and Government and now we know not where nor how to come to a settlement Engl. If you look upon the Parliament and their proceedings or on the Army and theirs you will find that in our whole course there was seldome any such agreement which the Rule of former Laws and Constitutions of Government that the actions of either could be clearly and fully justified thereby any longer then the Law of Successe and Conquest did uphold them and the inward warrant of Justice and Righteousnesse did encourage them in such their actings Neither could it be otherwise those Laws that were made for the support of our former Government being as contrary to Principles of just Freedom as the Governours or Government it selfe Scotl. But I hope you will not thence inferr that therefore you may breake and make voyd all other our good Laws at your pleasure Engl. All Laws that are just and equall will be found to spring from the Root of all power the Law of God which is the Foundation of all Laws that are just and as they are consonant thereunto they will agree with that Principle which we own and hold forth and desire to be found in And we shall be sorry if any shall accuse us of the violation of any such Laws we hope they cannot Scotl. Truely for our parts many of us we can say it we would not fight in a personall quarrell not for the best of Persons neither for Members of a Parliament nor for the Officers of the Army but for the good Cause of justice freedome and Righteousnesse in which we have been engaged that onely will God blesse who respects no mans Person that worke onely will he carry on and therein I am convinced by your Discouse is the power and true Authority and all who are found standing in it will need no other warrant And now Fellow-souldier I must take my leave being glad of this happy Meeting and shall change my purpose of going any further Southward and shall returne immediately to my Brethren in Scotland who I hope will be much satisfied to heare of these things Onely I would faine have spoken a little with you about the Government you intend to settle But in a few dayes if you will promise to meet me I hope to returne and have a better opportunity Till then I bid you Farewell And so shaking Hands they parted The end of the first Part.