't is much more to take it from Court Parliaments formerly upon any extraordinary matter staid and sent their Members to consult with those who sent them I am not subjugated when I am here to what the Country does propose I am as much against a Republick as he that fears it but I am a Protestant I say I know Sir T. Litt. to be of that Experience and Reason that if he go away satisfied in this matter he will do all the good he can in the post he is in But to keep close to this question It being allowed by Law That an Exclusion of the D. from the Crown may be the next thing is to consider the Expedient of the Regency proposed The same Authority that can make a Descent of the Crown may mod fie it He argued to shew that the Regency would make the Duke insignificant in the Administration of the Government Now the Question is which is the most parcticable We Lawyers are aptest to go on the strongest side and to call every thing Prerogative I 'l put you a case in King James's time the Sheriff of there was an exceptation in his Commission that he should not keep the County Court of but should have all other Exercises of his Office But the Judges resolved he was Sheriff to all intents and purposes and that he could not be hindred keeping the County-Court An Act of Parliament against common sence is void To make a man King and not suffer him to exercise Kingly power is a contradiction Some clauses formerly in Acts of Parliament were flattering clauses to satisfie the people and not let them have the thing Should this of the Expedient be an Act 't is nonsense and may be said hereafter the House of Commons were outwitted I owe the Duke obedience if he be King but if he be King and have no power to govern he is the King and no King I have urged this to shew that this is no Expedient it blears only peoples Eyes and is no solid security To say the Duke values his Estate which he may forfeit c. He loves a Crown too very well therefore you are not to arm your self in point of Consequence but in point of Reason The last Parliament I did see by the management of the Papists and the Ministers that without this Bill of Exclusion our ruine is irresistable If the Duke come to the Crown He brings with his Religion Merum Imperium and that made me fond of the Bill but if by Law the Duke never was King there is no case of Conscience lyes upon us in his Exclusion I will only make this observation of the Kings Speech in relation to this Question And if it be practicable the ridding of our selves quite of that Party c. and not to lay so much weight upon one Expedient as to determine all others are ineffectual vide Speech The two main points it seems the King doubts himself and all this delivered by the King in great wisdom is clipt off to this Expedient of the Regency You see now we come to Expedients the Ministers have had two Parliaments to consider it and now we are come to this Expedient of the Regency I find no security in Law by this Expedient you take away nothing by this Expedient and therefore I hope the Bill of Exclusion will pass I hope that reason and not great Offices will take men off from their Nemine contradicente I speak this as if I were a dying man and Humbly Move for the Bill c. H. B. I have it in command from my Country That they apprehend no Expedient to secure us from Popery but that the Remedy will be worse than the Disease unless this Bill I have heard as yet no Reason given against it But there is an aliquid latet If the D. be not set aside I am sure the Government will be and therefore I am for the Bill of Exclusion c. Sir T. M. I know not how far Sir Fr. W. Argument may be prest what Bill soever we may have Pray let us have the Law on our sides that if the King should dye we may know whether we are to go I think the K. s ' Speech is penned as it ought to be penned and should a King speak positively to what Laws He would have we are an Irish Parliament and not an English but the Kings words are tender words The thing lies fairly before you if any Expedient can be thought of not to destroy the Monarchy and if the next presented be not the best not to refuse the next E. V. You have had an Expedient offerd you of a Regency c. instead of the Bill of Exclusion c. Pray consider what this Regency is 'T is the whole Office of a King to appoint Judges call Parliaments c. This Power they would take away from the Duke But if by Law they will reserve the name of King to the Duke 't is to bring a War upon us and to bring the Duke in by force This Regency must he supported by War as well as the Bill of Exclusion By the 13 Eliz. the Crown is not alienable by the King but may be alienated by King Lords and Commons And when that Statute was made no Successour was named to keep King James in awe which I conceive was the Reason why none was named in the last Bill of Exclusion Though we have bin frighted out from that Bill by Prorogations and Dissolutions yet 't will not frighten them whose Reasons go along with it And I am for that Bill because all men are for it and have sent up the same Parliament again that past it But if you lead people into uncertainties in the Government as this project of Regency undoubtedly will do the Court and the Country will be of a mind to lay aside Parliaments because they are useless Sir H. C. Peoples eyes are now enlightned and all the world over they are an informed people The Papists care not who is King if he be a Papist And so he proceeded much to the same purpose in several Speeches in the last Parliament Col. G. L. I would not have spoke so much out of duty to my Master but for the duty I owe to my Country I owe a new Obligation to the King for I am the D's Servant from the King My Father was a Servant to the late King and this and I have my protection under him I was bred in England and for his Service at Sea I know my own weakness not being bred to the Law but by enquiry I find that the Doctrine of disposing a Kingdom from the Right Heir is Damnable and 't is the Doctrine of the Church of Rome I have heard that in the 24 E. 3 the King demanded Advice of the Parliament in matters relating to the Crown The Answer was by the whole Parliament They could not advise in any thing relating to the Crown nor of disinheriting
consider it but possibly there may be several This Bill is agreed to be an Expedient and I have known that in a business of less weight then this you have gone into a Committee c. If an Expedient must be offered in the House you cannot but allow Gentlemen to make replies in a fair Debate to answer Objections And if you in the House will depart from that from the House or Committee are equal to me But our Debate is broke one Gentleman said he would be content with a Committee if not intended for delay I do not doubt but this day will have its full effect When 't was moved on Thursday last for this day to take into consideration the preservation of Religion without naming Bill or Expedients it gave a great credit to your work I would have no discouragements upon people that have Expedients by not going into a grand Committee R. H. We are perplexed in having several Questions on foot I shall put you in mind that this Bill now proposed is no new nor strange thing Our bunness I suppose is to find out Expedients to preserve the Protestant Religion and the Kings Person here is a way has past two Parliaments already a way no reasonable objection has ever been made against it and a way rejected by the Lords in gross without offering any other But I doubt if other Expedients be tryed if they prove false we shall endanger the Protestant Religion Some have said that Gentlemen apprehend they have Expedients why then may not they 〈◊〉 propounded that the House may judge whether 't will be worth going into a grand Committee to consider them But if Gentlemen will have it their own way or not at all I 'le tell you how this looks as if they were something one way and nothing another but he does not discharge his duty to his Countrey that does â—e therefore if Gentlemen have any Expedients pray let them offer them Sir J.E. If the House be of a mind not to enter into a grand Committee I shall offer my little mite as 't is every mans duty to offer Expedient that has any I doubt not but other men have and better than me but forego not into a grand Committee I shall offer what I have I do apprehend by the Bill proposed that 't is a Bar to the Succession of the Duke and places the Succession in the next Heir I shall propose if you please not the Name of King but the power as a Regency in the next Heir 't is no new thing in Spain and France and God knows we have seen it done in our Kingdom If the Administration be placed safe in the person that may have no power to resign to the Duke and may have full power and authority at the death of the King to call that Parliament which sate last who shall have time to sit to confirm this by Act of Parliament I hope this may be done and may be done safely if you can contrive such a way Sir N. C. As I understand 't is proposed that the Government shall be in Regency during the Dukes Life I would be satisfied if the Duke would not submit to that whether those that fight against it are not Traytors in Law Sir W. P. I think this you are upon a matter of great weight some Expedient has been offered you I believe as yet but a crude one and I cannot imagine will ever be an effectual one He that moved it tells you he hopes when drawn into better form it may do what you desire It Excludes the Duke and in his place the next in the Succession shall have the Regency in him But our last act left it in the Law Consider what is a Regency I never heard of it but of a Prince in possession in Minority or Lunacy and it has generally been very unfortunate But to talk of a Regency in futuro in condition and limitation of time I never heard of This Expedient does not answer the Kings Speech nor your former Bill they make the King but a shadow and they divide Person from Power our Law will not endure it The Person divided from the Power both will be courted and who that next Heir will be we know not The King leads you to consider Expedients but such as will consist with the safety and dignity of Monarchy This must be two Kings at the same time one by Law and another by Right Portugal gives us some instance of Regency where the King was put into prison for Miscarriages in the Government and his next Heir made Regent but there is a vast difference in these two cases The King of Portugal was set aside for personal Miscarriages not for being a Papist and which is another thing that was present this is to come If this Question be to let the Duke in and then make a Question whether Allegiance be due to him but I am afraid that unless we be true to those we represent from whom by Express direction most of us are to pursue the Bill c. we shall not be avowed in what we do The Bill c. has been under consideration of all the people of England and perhaps all the Protestants of Europe all the Wits of Learned men have made their Objections against it yet notwithstanding all people are stilof the same mind And now we run upon the most mis-shapen thing which it may be two or three years before we understand it and we may expect to have an operation of it no body knows when I see very little weight in it unless improved by some other person therefore I am for the Bill Sir T. Litt. We are flying at a great matter To fight against the Duke if he should be King God forbid We have been told three or four times of Directions Gentlemen have had from their Principals to be against all those things of Expedients and to insist upon the Bill of Exclusion c. I would not have that way much cherished 't is an uncertain thing and no footsteps remain of any papers from their Country I take the meaning of that going down is to consult their Neighbours for Direction what to do I hear talk to day of Parliaments of France but this way is as dangerous like the States of Holland to consult with their Principals before they resolve most unusual and of very dangerous consequence A Regency has been proposed to secure the Administration of the Government in Protestant Hand so as not to alter the constitution of the Monarchy and this alters the Constitution of the Monarchy the least imaginable A Regency in Room of a King and the Monarchy goes on We have had Regent Protectors call it what you please Primus Consiliarius in case of a Minor Prince but I propose not this If you alter the Government I am against it but here is offer'd a Regent in place of the King or transferring the Government But it may be said
Where shall the Duke be all this while That point I think is pretty well over there is no design of Seclusion The Lords would have Banished him 600 Miles from England The Duke has an Estate and He as all men beside loves it and will not part with it and will do nothing to forfeit it But your Bill of Exclusion secludes the Duke and the Crown then is to fall as it does fall What is then the Case You must imagine either his own Daughter will take up Arms if the Duke attempt the Crown or some bodie else will to keep him out and that will raise such an Anger in the Dukes mind whether will they shelter themselves Not under his Daughter they must naturally shelter themselves and run into Armes Cromwel's way was to keep up an Army of Sixty thousand Men for his security especially an Army flesht with Victory And they that have it will keep it We are not in the condition we were formerly when the Lords cherished their Tenants by good Leases they could raise an Army send them home to their houses when they had done what they were raised for But we are now in another way raise an Army and they wil think of their own Interrest to be kept up But if it fall out thus your Bill leaves it very lose Assoon as this Bill is past suppose the Regency established in the Princess of Orange or the Lady Ann and in the same Law a Commission be sent over to take an Oath from her strictly to execute this Law you are then not left in that loose manner you will be by the Bill c. 'T will be a far less matter for her to save a Family before Misfortune come upon it than to take the Government upon her afterwards in the trouble of an opposition But it may be said What needs all this 't is just nothing but retaining the name of K. in an exiled man But 't is less violation in her to Govern in her Fathers Name than to take the Kingdom from him It may be wondered why in Portugal upon Deposing that King there was a great Debate of the three Estates though they hold not the proportion as they do here In this great Debate the Commons were for Don Pedro to be King the Nobility to have him Regent the Ecclesiasticks Demurr'd but at last both came over to the Nobility But Don Pedro stuck here and would still leave his Brother the Title of King and would leave nothing of shelter to force Nature too far There are Reserves in the King's Speech I cannot but take notice of by the way There is another thing to be considered Some will be paying a deference to the Sacredness of a Crown for Governments sake This Objection looks like something He is like to be five hundred Miles off c. and a Law to take up Arms against him How was that Law that the King and Parliament have power to dispose of the Crown it was then an Opinion amongst the Lawyers that the Crown was unal enable but when that Law was made that Opinion was damn'd under a penalty though 't was a standing Max'me before that Statute was made If so this new Act will be a Warrant for what is proposed as that was for the other For my part I have had the all fortune to have the wind in my face and to be against the generall Opinion and stream of the world and having had for some time no share in the Government I may speak possibly more freely then they that have 'T is a great Crime to spy things too soon which makes men apt to run from one Extream to another I have proposed the best Expedient I can and most safe but I am afraid if you do nothing in this great Affair now it is started I 'll graple with neither of the Expedients but if you do nothing but let the thing lye loose you 'll gratifie the Jesuits by our confusion and the commonwealths men to shuffle the Cards again But if you go into some Medium both these sort of men will be undone Sir W. J. I have beard with great Attention this very Learned and able Gentleman I am really of opinion if any better Expedient could have been found out than what has been proposed that he as assoon as any Gentleman would have proposed it But I am amased that so learned a Gentleman should not see through this Expedient That which I take for the Expedient its the Duke to retain the name of King and the next Heir to be under the Title of Regent or Protector What does he mean by next Heir For any thing I know and believe it is the Dukes Daughter but it may be the Duke may have a Son Either I have a great cloud upon my understanding or this is strange that if the Duke have a Son and shall he at a Day a Month or Year old be Regent Suppose the Princess of Orange come over and she dye the Prince of Orange has no Right to the Regency and she leave a Child and that Child be Regent that Child must have a Protector and so there will be a Protector of a Protector But Sir we are told that nothing but to keep up the Greatness of the Government makes them go from the Bill of Exclusion to this Expedient But is it so great and pleasing a thing to wear a Crown and be called King and have no Authority It is much worse than to loose an actual Crown and the possession of it If the Bill pass and the Duke be Banished 500 Miles off it must be out of England if the name will please him in Givility beyond the Sea he shall be King and it will be as much to his purpose boyond the Sea to be called King only as here But for the Security of his Estate being here He that would venture the loss of a Kingdom for Religion will his Estate too that 's but a weak ty It is less injustice to take away the Crown and power from him than to have of both but the Name If you allow the Duke the Name it will imply a Right therefore for that to be used as an Argument is strange But why is this Contention and all this ado I wonder for an empty Name But I am afraid this Expedient is a kind of Jesuit-Powder I do not think the Gentlemans Intent or Opinion is for the Jesuits but a wise man may over-do sometimes If you do not Exclude the Dukes Title the Duke is King still and then will Learned Lawyers tell you that by 1 H. 7. all Incapacity is taken away by the possession of the Crown If you take not away the Discent of the Crown and that the Duke has a Tittle to be King then without Doubt all incapacities fail but if the thing may be effectually done I am as willing to exclude him the Name as well as the power but Lawyers know no
Him to whom they were sworn The Fundamental and Common Law of England has made the Duke Heir to the Crown if the King have no Sons The Title of Hen. 4. was confirmed by Parliament but he laid his Claim of Descent from H. 3 and it continued in that Descent till H. 6. and then the Parliament declared that those Acts were not binding but unjust and declared the Oaths of Allegiance to those Kings in famous and wicked and so the Right Heir came in H. 8. had Power to dispose of the Crown by his last Will and Testament to place and displace the Crown at his pleasure yet all his right Heirs came to the Crown though Jane Gray claimed it by vertue of that Will and baited her Title with Religion Queen Elizebeth made a Law That whoever did maintain That the Crown could not be disposed of by Parliament should be Guilty of Treason c. and for ever after of Praemunire But since that there is a Restitution of King James which acknowledge him lawfully rightly and justly the next Heir to the Crown and did beseech the King to accept of their Allegiance to him and his Posterity And I think our Ancestors swore to the King and his Posterity as well as we 'T is a great Happiness to this Nation that both the Lines are united and that we are rid of the Misfortunes of the Barons Wars We have had Attempts to turn the Government into a Republique And who knows but that if you put by the Right of the D. the Revenue of the Crown being much upon the people but that there may be Attempts to turn the Gevernment into a Republick again When my Father was in Prison in the late Troubles an eminent man then in Power in discourse with him said I have obliged you and if the King come in as I believe He will then think of me Look to your Selves when you are in the Saddle again If once you divide adieu to Monarchy for ever If you keep out the Duke what must follow An Act for Association I speak now for England and for my Posterity I have seven Children How will this look The Kings Father Murder'd and his Brother taken from Him Will this take no effect with the King I wish the Duke many happy days but the King more from my heart than the Duke The King is a healthful Man and the Duke is not I am not barely the Duke's Servant which makes me concern my self nor out of pique of Honour would I do any thing to destroy my Posterity Therefore I am against the Bill c. Sir W. C. That which calls me up is to answer something that was said by the worthy Member that spoke last I am for the Bill of Exclusion and was so the last Parliament because I am clearly satisfied there can be no Security without it But I must so far agrree with him that this Bill if it should pass will not be a full and compleat Security But Here being an Interruption by a noise in the House this Gentleman proceeded no further Col B. This is the day of Englands distress and not only England but upon this days Debate depends the good fate of the Protestant Religion all the world over Except you expect a Miracle from Heaven nothing else can save the Protestant Religion but this Bill of Exclusion I think I have said this many years ago That Popish Matches would bring in Popery at last As to the point of Law spoken of that 't will be interpreted according to the strength of the Party But I doubt not if we do our endeavours God will help us if we have nothing left us but Prayers and Teares We are in condition of Conquest or Compact and so is all Government Interest must defend this Bill and not an Army we are the Army I have a Family as well as others and where Idolatry must be set up and rather than my Children should breath in such an Air I had rather they were buried and had all the mischiefs in the world Col. L. ingenuously offer'd some things but without this Bill you may sit down take a Popish Successour and renounce the Protestant Religion I would break this Popish Interest and then Interest will maintain this Bill If once this Bill pass and as in Queen Elizebaths time Protestants are put in places of Trust you need not fear the disturbance spoke of Where ten were of this minde an hundred are now that will bleed for this Bill In plain English let the world see that the Protestant Religion is dear to us and we shall have the Law on our sides Sir T. Litt. I was mistaken by some Gentlemen in what I said I shall be very short and tender of the time because 't is late That of the Lady Maries Regency obviated an absurdity in the former Bill If the Duke should have a Son where are you then The Lady cannot descend from the Throne having possess'd it But my meaning was that the two Princesses respectively should Succeed in the Regency during the Minority of that Son The Bill of Exclusion is so weak a thing that 't will need all the props to support it And a train of consequences will follow it What is told you of Scotland is worth your consideration if Scotland be not consenting to it I know not how you 'll obviate that It unites the Papists of England and France which we ought above all things to prevent H. B. He may be convinced by his own Argument For by so much the easier 't is for the Princess of Orange to descent from her Authority of Regent so much the less is our security And for Scotland the same Interest that passes this Bill here will do it in Scotland and in Ireland there is no need of it By this Proposition of the Regency all Commissions Military by Sea and Land Church and Law are to go on in the Dukes name And if all Dispatches under the Great Seal must go under his Name we can have no Security The Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy can be taken to none but him and if that be granted That 't is unlawful to take up arms against the King or those Commissionated by him If that be not a true proposition I know not why that Declaration was made It lies loose to me I must confess this Expedient seems to me as if a man that scorched his Shins at the Fire instead of removeing himself farther off should send for a Mason to remove the Chimney back I have heard from Lawyers That if a man do make a Freehold-Lease to begin from the date thereof 't is void It would be more ingenuous for the Gentlemen to say If you do pass the Bill to exclude the Duke they will not be bound by it they will have the Duke to Succeed and then I wish they would tell us what will save the Protestant Religion If the Duke come to the Crown will