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A56065 The propositions of the Roman Catholicks of Ireland as also the answer of the agents for the Protestants of Ireland made to the said propositions, and their petitions and propositions to His Majesty, and His Majesties answer to the propositions of the said Roman Catholicks, and the answer of James, Marquesse of Ormond, His Majesties Commissioner for the treatie and concluding of a peace in the kingdome of Ireland, to the said propositions. Confederate Catholics.; Ormonde, James Butler, Duke of, 1610-1688. 1644 (1644) Wing P3800; ESTC R36692 41,588 78

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capite taken away and that then a course for his Maiesties profit and service should be proposed that being to be offered in the first place before his Maiestie part with the other And the like is to be done for respit of homage 10. His Maiestie may not receade from the former answer with which the Proposers may rest satisfied 11. As his Maiestie may not vary from his former answer so he may not foreclose the houses of parliament from making any declaration agreeable to the lawes of the land 12. The Proposers may rest satisfied with the former answer considering that all parties grieved may have the benefit of the lawes of the land and that by consent of the parties interested many matters determined at Councell-board are confirmed by act of parliament 13. His Maiestie will be pleased that indifferent persons be agreed on this treatie who shall be authorised by Commission to moderate and settle the Booke of Rates in such sorre as they shall thinke fit 14. His Maiestie may not assent any further to this proposition then he hath already done without apparent preiudice to his service 15. His Maiestie may not receade from his former answer 16. His Maiestie thinkes not fit to give any further answer to this Proposition then he hath done already untill the Proposers make answer to the propositions made and delivered unto them in the behalfe of his Maiesties protestant subiects and their adherents And then upon further debate his Maiestie will give such answer as shall be thought fit 17. It may not be admitted that tryals by the knowne lawes of the land assented unto by the former answer should not be indifferent And therefore his Maiestie may not receade from his former answer The said Lord Marquesse of Ormond now declares that albeit these answers are thus given by him in present to the said propositions yet that he intends not to be thereby concluded from altering the same or adding thereunto in any parts thereof in such sorte as he shall finde cause upon further debate Additionall Propositions of His Majesties most humble and loyall subjects the Confederate Roman Catholicks of Ireland presented to His Excellencie the Lord Marques of Ormond Lord Lieutenant of Ireland His Majesties Commissioner 1. THat an act bee passed this next Parliament prohibiting that neither the Lord Deputie Lord Chancellor Lord High Treasurer Vice-Treasurer Chancellor or any of the Barrons of the Erchequer privy councell or Iudges of the foure Courts bee Farmers of his Majesties Customes 2. That an act of Parliament may passe in this Kingdome against all Monopolies such as was enacted in England 21. Iacobi with a further clause for repealing of all grants of monopolies in this Kingdome 3. That the Court of Castle-chamber in this Kingdome having been an oppression to the subject there being other remedies for the offences questioned in that Court by the Common Law and Statutes of the Realme be taken away or otherwise limitted as both houses of Parliament shall thinke fit 4. That two acts lately past in this Kingdome one prohibiting the plowing with horses by the taile and the other prohibiting the burning of oates in straw may bee repealed 5. That upon presenting the names of three persons of qualitie in each Countie by Vs to your Lordship patents be passed to such of those so to bee presented respectively to be Sheriffs in each County as to your Lordship shall seeme meet to make choice of for that purpose 6. That one or more Agents from this Kingdome may bee admitted still to attend his Majestie for his better information of the affaires of this Kingdome And that as a testimony of his Majesties favour some of the nobles and others of qualitie of this Kingdome may be imployed about his Majesties person 7. For asmuch as divers of the Scottish Nation and others in this Kingdome doe not obey the present cessation and many of them having of late taken the Covenant proposed by the members of Parliament at Westminster now in armes against his Majestie It is therefore humbly desired that such as disobey the said Cessation or have taken the said Covenant bee proclaimed traytors and prosecuted accordingly by his Majesties authoritie and that such Counties or Corporations as have not submitted to the now Cessation of armes in this Kingdome according his Maiesties Commission be not admitted to make any returne to the Parliament 8. For asmuch as sundry persons estated in this Kingdome have either actually raised armes in England against his Majestie or have otherwise adhered to the malignant partie now in armes against his Majestie that therefore it may please his Majestie to give way to the impeachment and attainders of those and such others whose names we shall here represent to your Lordship by way of bill in Parliament whereby they may receive condigne punishment for their offences his Majesty take advantage of the forfeiture of their estates and in the interim the possessions to remaine in the hands wherein they are at present 9. For asmuch as upon application of the Agents from this Kingdome to his Majestie in the fourth yeare of his raigne and lately upon humble suite made to his Majestie by a Committee of both houses of the Parliament of this Kingdome order was given by his Majestie for redresse of severall greevances It is therefore humbly desired that for so many of those as are not expressed in the now propositions presented to your Lordship whereof both houses in the next ensuing Parliament shall desire the benefit of his Majesties said former directions for redresses that the same bee afforded them 10. That the office of 〈◊〉 in this Kingdome bee setled ●●dependant of none but his Majestie whereby maritime causes may bee determined here without driving merchants or others to appeale or seeke Iustice elsewhere in those causes 11. That a Course may be taken for all such as owe debts in this Kingdome for that by reason of the generall devastation of the Kingdome the land is not like in some yeares to come to be of any considerable value being the onely meanes that many of the Nobilitie Gentrie and others of this Kingdome had to satisfie their debts and therefore a competent time bee given by act to bee past in the next Parliament for payment thereof and the interest or use of moneyes to bee moderated 12. That the subjects of this Kingdome may bee eased of the increase of rent lately raysed and imposed on them upon the late Commission of defective titles in the Earle of Straffords time 13. That if any of your Lordships partie during these troubles have by fines recoveries or otherwise disinherited those who were next to succeed them of our partie as heires or in reversion or remainder without reall and full consideration but for being of our partie that all acts so done be avoided in Parliament 14. That such of our partie whose estates are in the hands of the Scottish and Parliament partie either in
kingdome and may be also a meanes to force many of your Majesties subjects to quite that Kingdome or peradventure to adhere to some other partie there in opposition of the Romish Irish confederates rather then be lyable to their power which effects may prove of most dangerous consequence and we humbly offer to your Majesties consideration your owne gracious expressions mentioned in the grounds and motives inducing your Majestie to agree to a Cessation of Armes for one whole yeare with the Roman Catholickes of Ireland Printed at Oxford the ninth of October 1642. viz. And let all our good subjects be assured that as we have for these reasons and with this caution and deliberation consented to this preparative to peace And to that purpose doe continue our Parliament there so we shall proceed in the accomplishment thereof with that care and circumspection that we shall not admit even peace it selfe other wise then as it may bee agreeable to conscience honour and justice We also humbly desire that such Lawes as your Majestie shall thinke fit to passe may bee transmitted according to Poynings Law and other lawes of explanation thereof or of addition therevnto now in force with great contentment and securitie to your Majesties protestant subjects But if the present Parliament be dissolved we humbly represent unto your Majestie that so many of your ablest and best protestant subjects have beene murdered or banished by this Rebellion that few or no protestant Freeholders will be found in the Counties Cities and Burroughs to elect and choose Knights Citizens and Burgesses which will be most dangerous to your Majesties rights and prerogatives and good subjects and may beget great disputes in after times for the repealing of Poynings Act notwithstanding their faigned expressions of their loyaltie Yet it plainely appeares they doe not repose sucht rust inyour Majesties Iustice as it becommeth lo yall subjects to doe and such they pretend themselves to be for that they seeke thereby to prevent your Majestie and your Councell of England Ireland of so full a view time of mature consideration to be had of acts of Parliament of Ireland before they passe as in prudence is requisit and hath been found necessarie by the experience of well neere two hundred yeares And if their intentions were so cleare as they professe wee know not why they should avoyde the strictest view and tryall of your Majesties and your Councels of both Kingdomes This they desire intending to introduce a great diminution of your Royall and necessarie power for the conservation of your Regall State and protection of your good protestant subjects there and elsewhere And what speciall use they ayme at in seeking such repeale your protestant subjects as they know not the particular so can they conjecture of none unlesse the said Confederates have some designe by way of surprize to obtrude upon your Majestie in their new desired Parliament some acts in Iustification of their ill done actions and for condemning such of your protestant subjects as have in their severall degrees most faithfully served your Majestie there which we the rather beleeve seeing they have proved by their oath of Association and the Bull lately published in Ireland since the Cessation the destruction of the Protestants there when they have their swords in their hands to put the same in execution 3. Wee humbly desire that they may particularize those orders or ordinances which may prejudice your Majesties service For we are well assured that the Parliament now sitting in Ireland on signification of your Majesties pleasure therin eyther will give your Majestie full satisfaction or repeale any unjust orders or ordinances whatsoever which may be prejudiciall to your Majestie And there may be some orders or ordinances which may concerne particular persons in their lives liberties or fortunes that may suffer unheard by the admitting of so generall a proposition which is meerely proposed as wee humbly conceive to put a scorne on your Majesties parliament now sitting there and to discourage your protestant subiects who have faithfully served your Maiesty in that parliament 4. This wee conceive to be a very bold proposition not warranted as we also conceive by any example tending to introduce an ill president in after times for it was never seene that Records were taken of the file but where there was some corruption or fraud or some illegall or uniust carriage used in and concerning the procuring or making up of such Records and the same first well proved upon due examination And it may not onely conceale but in some fort seeme to iustifie their abominable Treasons Murders Cruelties Massacres and plunders acted against your Maiesties person Crowne and dignitie upon the persons of your Maiesties most loyall protestant subiects in that Kingdome and encourage the Papists there to doe the like againe besides the discouragement it may beget in your Maiesties officers and subiects to their duties in the like insurrections which may happen hereafter which also may prove very preiudiciall to your Maiesties rights and revenues if the Records to support the forfeytures wherein many of them are or may be grounded should be taken of the file and Cancelled 5. We humbly conceive that in times of peace and most setled government When the Court of Law and Iustice is most open best observed that the debts due to the Crowne and actually levied and payed in to your Maiesties use ought not to bee restored though the Records of the forfeytures should legally be reversed which is farre from the present case And this proposition tendeth to crosse the just right of your Majestie and to make the disposition by the Confederate popish Rebels of debts due to protestants and by the said rebels by fraud and force levyed and disposed in maintenance of their rebellion which commonly they call by the name of publicke uses to be in equall degree with the debts owing by the rebels and by them all forfeyted and many of them by law duely levyed which is a most unequall and unjust thing And the said propositions cannot nor doth make offer to have the popish Confederats cut off from the debts due to them which they have justly forfeyted but only for a colour of consideration to have the protestants loose such debts justly due to them as have beene unjustly taken from them who have done no act at all to forfeyte them 6. We know not of any offices found on fayned Titles nor what the Confederats may demand in respect of any graces promised by your Majesty which we intend not nor have any occasion to dispute but do humbly conceive that all those who have committed treason in the late rebellion subsequent to your Majesties promise of those graces have thereby forfeyted the benefit thereof together with the Lands which the said graces might else have related and so their whole estates are now justly fallen to your Majesty by their rebellion which we conceive is of great importance for