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A47813 The casuist uncas'd, in a dialogue betwixt Richard and Baxter, with a moderator between them, for quietnesse sake by Roger L'Estrange. L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1680 (1680) Wing L1209; ESTC R233643 73,385 86

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Constitution of Churches the Powers of Princes and Pastors in Eccclesiastical Matters and Cases of Lawful Separation he makes a Sally without any manner of Connexion or Provocation into the State and Right of the War Pa. 123. He charges it upon a Faction among the Bishops and the falling in of the Majority of the Parliaments to the Popular part of them in That division which is a Calumny as remote from the Subject of his Discourse as it is from Truth If it had been as he woud have it how comes the whole Order of Bishops to be Assaulted Their Persons Affronted and their Votes in Parliament taken away without distinction Was the Feud so deadly as to make them destroy Themselves and Ruine the whole Hierarchy in Revenge How came it to pass that Bishop Hall a Person Celebrated even by Mr Baxter himself for his Piety and Moderation How came This Reverend Prelate I say te be so Coursly handled by the Corporation of the Smectymnuans Marshall Calamy Young Newcomen and Spurstow and Treated by Five of the most Eminent men of the Par●y with Scurrilitys fitter for the Priests of Priapus then the Ministers of the Gospell Pa. 124. He goes on with his Remarks upon Bishop Laud over and over The Book of Sports on the Lords day the business of Altars Rayls and Bowing towards them Afternoon-Sermons and Lectures put down Imprisonments Stigmatisings Removals c. And then Pa. 125. He p●oceeds to the new Liturgy Imposed on the Scots c. But says he a little below we are Vnwilling to be the Mentioners of any More then Concerneth our Present Cause and the Things are Commonly known Which is such a way of Mentioning no more as gives to understand without speaking all the Ill Imaginable that was Left unsaid Methinks Mr. Baxter might have let This most Reverend Pious Loyal and ANTIPAPAL Arch-Bishop have slept quietly in ●is Grave and out of pure Gratitude to our Present Sovereign to whose Mercy this very Gentleman owes his Life setting aside the Veneration that belongs to Majesty and Truth M●thinks Mr. Baxter might have spared this L●bell ander the Government of the Son against the Administrations of the Father But it is no new thing ●or Criminals to Arraign Innocents or for Those that a●e Pardon'd for Subverting the Government to shoot th●ir Arrows ●v●n ●itter Words against Those that h●ve been Persecuted and Murther'd for Endeavouring to defend it And now after all Thes● Imputations upon the King the Church and the Loyall Party ●v●n to the Degree of making them A●swera●le for all the Blood that has been spilt We must not so much as presume to say that we are Innocent But every Vindication of the King the Church and the Law from the Insults of the Common Enemy is exclaimed against as an Inrode upon the Act of Indemnity If Mr. Baxter will needs be laying the R●b●llion at the wrong d●or and Discharging the Presbyterians Why m●y not any Honest man Reply upon him and say in agreement with Mr. Baxter himself Non-Conformists Plea I. Part. Pa. 127. that it was the Solemn League and Covenant that did the work Which Solemn League was not only an Expr●sse Oath of Allegianc● to Presbytery but to the most Tyrannical of all Presbyteri●s Th●t of t●e Scottish Kirk it self But why do I call it an Oath of Allegiance to Presbytery When it was in Truth a direct Conjuration against the Government both Ecclesiastical and Civil for the Introducing of it It would be Tedious and Superfluous to Crowd all the Particulars of This Pamphlet into a Preface so that I shall rather refer the Reader to the Book for the rest where he may compare Mr. Baxter with himself for it is Effectually but an Abstract out of Mr. Baxter's Writings By the Paradoxes Disagreements and Contradictions he will be able to Iudge of the Authour and by the Authour in a great Measure of the Party He that would see them drawn more to the Life may repair to the Original of our Saviours for the Pharisees in the Gospell Examin them Narrowly and you shall not find so much as the semblance of a Colourable Argument but they are still changing their Battery and Pretense according to the various Accidents and dispositions of State and it is but tracing the History of the Late times to find every Round of the Ladder that advanc'd them from Petitioners to Rulers They Plead the Cause of Thousands in the Land they tell us and yet there 's not a Single man in all Those Thousands that understands one bit of the Controversy They cry aloud against Idolatry Superstition Abominations Symbolical Ceremonies Will-Worship Humane Inventions and Order their Disciples just as they do their Children They dresse up a Terrible thing of Clouts and call it a Bull-begger which is no other then a Mormo of their own Creating They have a certain Routin of Words and Sayings that have the tone of Magique in the very Sound of them and serve only without any other Meaning like the Drum and the Trumpet to rouse up the Multitude to Battle But the Lords Ordinance and the Primitive Pattern stand them in Mighty stead For though they have been Foyld as often as Encountred upon This Question yet the very Terms of the Controversy being is good as Syriack to the Common people there is a Mist cast before their Eyes and they are never in so good time to see Visions as when they are stark blind To Conclude I have exposed these She●●s to the ●●●●ck rather as Mr. Baxters work then my own If 〈…〉 it was none of my Fault that my Authour would not me 〈…〉 Nor have I any more to say upon the whole matter but that I have been as fair to Mr. Baxter as He hath been to Himself A DIALOGUE c. Moderator Richard and Baxter Moderator YEs yes I remember the Conference at the Savoy perfectly well by This Token that Dr. Gunning and Dr. Pearson the Bishops of Ely and Chester deliver'd you this very Proposition That Command which Commandeth an Act in it self Lawfull and no other Act whereby any unjust Penalty is enjoyned nor any Circumstance whence directly or per accidens any Sin is Consequent which the Commander ought to provide against hath in it all things requis●●● to the Lawfulnesse of a Command and particularly cannot be guilty of commanding an Act per accidens Unlawfull nor of Commanding an Act under an Unjust Penalty B of Worcesters Letter in his Vindication against M. Baxter P. 36. Ri. Very Good and I gave them under my hand my Opinion to the Contrary Because said I the fi●st Act commanded may be per accidens Unlawful and be Commanded by an Vnjust Penalty tho' no other Act or Circumstance Commanded be such Ibid. Pa. 36. Ba. Nay hold you Brother I 'm of another Opinion If the thing Commanded be such as is simply ill and forbidden us by God in all Cases whatsoever then no ones Commands can
make it Lawfull But if it it be a thing that is only Inconvenient or Unlawful by some Lesser accident then the Command of Authority may pre-ponderate as a more weighty Accident R. B's Church-Divisions P. 194. Nay Many a Ruler sinneth in his Commands when it is no Sin but a Duty of the Inferior to Obey them As if a Magistrate Command Religious Duties in meer Policy or if he force a Lawful Command with Unlawful Penalties and Yet it will be the Subjects Duty to Obey Ibid. Nor is any Ruler bound to suspect and prevent such Unusual Dangers of mens Sin or Ruine as fall out beyond all Rational Foresight or Expectation of whose Probable Event or Possible at least there was no just Evidence R. B's Non-Conformists Iudgment P. 60. Mo. Your Argument Mr. Richard has cut off all Magistracy at a Blow For there is not any Command Imaginable that falls not within the Reach of your Exception And Mr. Baxter is in the Right on 't But what do ye think now Gentlemen of the Operation or further Extent of such a Power Ri. If you mean as to matters concerning Religion No man 〈◊〉 any Authority to make Laws about Gods Worship but 〈◊〉 Christ hath given him Non-Conformists Plea 2d Part. P. 28. Ba. Pray'e hold me a little Excus'd There too for we renounce the Opinion of them that hold that Circa Sacra the King hath no Power to Command the Circumstances of Worship N●●-Conformists Plea Part 2 d. P. 73. Mo. There is but a Right and a Wrong in the case my Masters and you have hit them both again I make no doubt on 't but your Circa Sacra comprehends Liturgies Ceremonies and other Circumstances of Order relating to the Church pray'e tell me how your Consciences stand affected that way Not as to the Merits of the Cause for the world is allready clogg'd with That Controversy but I would willingly know what thoughts You and the Party you plead for entertain of our Ecclesiastical matters Ri. When the King call'd us to signify our desires in 1660. the Ministers of London were commonly invited to come to Sion Colledge that their Common Consent might be known And There we agreed to desire or offer nothing for Church-Government but A.B. Ushers Modell of the Primitive Episcopal Government When his Majesty would not grant us That Modell nor the Bishops once Treat about it he was pleased in his Gratious Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs to offer and prescribe the Episcopacy of England as it stood with little alteration c. A Government says his Majesty Fol. 10. Which is established by Law and with which the Monarchy hath flourished through so many Ages and which is in truth as ancient in this Island as the Christian Monarchy thereof This Declaration we Ioyfully and thankfully accepted as a ●opefull means of a Common Conformity and Concord Non-Con's Plea 2d Part Pref. Ba. The English Prelacy I tell you is the product of proud Ambition and Arrogancy and contrary to the expresse Command of Christ. R. B's Five Disputations P. 45. Bishops are Thorns and Thistles and the Military Instruments of the Devil R. B's Concord P. 122. How could you ●ustify then a Submission to such a Prelacy Mo. If an Angel from Heaven I perceive were employ'd to bring 〈◊〉 two to an Agreement he shoul● lose his Labo●r Fo● That which is highly acceptable to the One and the hopefull Foundation of a Common Concord is Ant●christian Diaboli●al and Uns●fferable to the Other You a●e up I find at every Turn with the 〈◊〉 Projectpunc and in such a manner too as if the most ●●●●onable thing in the World ●ad been offer'd o● the One 〈◊〉 and refused on the Other Whereat That 〈◊〉 was 〈◊〉 accommodated to the ●ard 〈…〉 the Kings Affairs at the time of Framing 〈…〉 any man in a case of Extremity 〈…〉 of an Arm ●r a Leg for the 〈…〉 yet he a very strange request to ask a man in a state of Freedome and Safety to part with a Leg or an Arm from his Body And as wild a thing on the other side to Grant it But the very offer at it under a pretense of Conscience was highly disingenuous especially when upon the Issue the Scruple was remov'd by the Ref●sal and This Satisfaction given to the world by your own Acknowledgment that Conformity and Episcopacy may stand well enough together when you please Ri. I c●nnot deny but that ma●y proposed to have yi●lded to Prelacy Liturgy and Ceremonies Non-Con Plea Part I. P. 136. Ba. Why truly a Certain Episcopacy may be yielded to for the Peace if not for the Right Order of the Church But the Diocesan Episcopacy which was lately in England and is now laid by may not be lawfully reassumed or readmitted as a means for the Right Order or Peace of the Church R. B's Five Disputation P. 2. 1659. A Government which gratif●eth the Devil and wicked men Ibid. P. 36. Mo. Still upon the Contradiction But if they were so well dispos'd to come In what was it I beseech you that put them off again Ri. When they saw the New Act for Uniformity th●ir Deliberations were at an End Ibid. P. 26. Ba. After proving Prelacy to be against the ●ill of Christ and the Wellfare of the Churches Five Disp. Pref. 1● and contrary to the word of God and Apostolical Institution Ibid P. 51. what need was there then of any further Disswasion Mo. Pray'e tell me Mr. Richard Was Prelacy Lawfull Before the Act for Uniformity and not After You are Angry at the One and therefore you Renounce the Other for it was no longer Prelacy Liturgy or Ceremonies it seems that you boggled at but the New Act. Now since you your selves were convinc'd that such a Conformity as aforesaid would have been Warrantable and only transfer'd your Exceptions to the New Act how comes it that you go on still decrying the State Rites and Offices of the Church to the Multitude and make That a matter of Conscience in One breath which you left at Liberty in Another The Uniformity does not alter the case one jot to the Common People but the Layety may as lawfully submit to Prelacy Liturgy and Ceremonies After the Act as they did before Ri. The People who now adhere to the Non-Conformists who were at age before the Wars had very hard thoughts of the Bishops Persons and some of Episcopacy it self because of the Silencing of Ministers and ruining of Honest men about Sundays-sports Reading That Book and other su●h things beside Nonconformity c. Non-Con Plea Part I. P. 139. Mo. the Bishops and Episcopacy it self you say were thought hardly of partly for S●lencing your Mi●isters Which was yet a way of proceeding Conformable to the directions of the Law and in part among Other Provocations for the Book of Sports upon the Lords day Be it spoken