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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A92173	A most grave, and modest confutation of the errors of the sect, commonly called Brownists, or: Seperatists. Agreed upon long since by the joynt consent of sundry, godly, and learned ministers of this kingdome, then standing out and suffering in the cause of inconformity; and now published in a time of need, for the good of Gods Church, and the better setling of mens unstable mindes in the truth against, the subtile insinuations, and plausible pretences of that pernicious evill. Published by W. Rathband, minister of the Gospell.	Rathband, William, d. 1695.	1644 (1644)	Wing R299; Wing M2893; Thomason E31_11; ESTC R209828	84,262	92

us to joyne unto p. 62. THE Church of Engl. is a true Church OF CHRIST I. EXCEPTION THe first Exception is against the whole body of our Assemblies and our Church in Generall which they tearme Babylonish Synagogues and a whorish Idolatrous Church Henry Barrow in his discovery of the false Church Page 24. ANSVVER THat the Church of England is a true Church of Christ Our Congregations are true Churches For Arg. 1. We have and ●oyne together in the use of the preaching of the Gospell and administ ration of the Sacraments and such an one as from which whosoever wittingly and willingly separateth himselfe cutteth himselfe from Christ wee doubt not but the indifferent Reader may be perswaded by these reasons following First Wee enjoy and joyne together in the use of those outward meanes which God in his Word hath ordained for the gathering of a visible Church for proofe whereof wee alleadge that the meanes which we use and enjoy have been effectuall to the unfained conversion of many as may appeare both by the other fruits of faith and by the Martyrdome which sundry have endured that were Members of our Church and had no other meanes of conversion then such as we have Yea even those men who judge so hardly of us now are able to witnesse with us in this case That if their be any true faith and sanctification in them though it bee much increased as they think since they left us yet it was begun and bred in our Assemblies Secondly If these places of holy Scripture Marth 28.20 Eph. s 4.11 14. bee well examined it will bee found that the means which Christ ordained for the gathering of a visible Church are the very same which we enjoy even the preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments That which Henry Barrow saith against us in this point pag. 160. of his discovery viz. that there is not any one thing amongst us either in order or administration according to Christs Testament shall bee hereafter disproved when we shall come to justifie our Ministery of the Word and Sacraments against their arguments or Objection whatsoever Now that this is an infallible and good argument of a true Church appeareth Which is an in fallible note of a true Church because First There cannot any people be named that having these meanes may yet by the word be evicted not to have beene the true Church The Papists indeed bragge of these means but without cause for the doctrine of faith is not preached amongst them but oppugned and consequently they cannot have the true Sacraments which are Seales of righteousnesse Rom. 3.12 9 4. which is by faith Secondly the Scripture every where speaketh of the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments as of priviledges peculiar to the Church of God psalm 147.19.20 So while the Jenes only were the Church these priviledges were restrained to them Matth. 10 56. and never made common to the Gentiles till the partition wall being broken downe Acts 11.19 23. they also were incorporated to the Church of God So the Prophet saith Arg. 2. that this should be the reason why the Gentiles were moved to joyne themselves unto the true Church because there and no where else the Ministerie of the Word was to be found Secondly Our whole Church maketh profession of the true faith The confession of our Church together with the Apologie thereof and those Articles of Religion which were agreed upon in the Convocation House in the Yeare of the Lord 1562. whereunto every Minister of the Land is bound by Law to subscribe so farre forth as they concerne the confession of faith and the doctrine of the Sacraments doe prove this evidently for how shall wee better judge of the faith which our Church professeth than by such evidence Many Papists and Atheists are in our Land wee grant and many ignorant and wicked men besides who make not so cleere and so holy profession of the true faith as they should but that our Church accounteth any one to be her Child or member who either denieth Christ or professeth any other way to salvation then faith which worketh by love or who doth not professe this faith an some measure we confidently deny Now this reason also hath force sufficient to prove us the true Church for as true faith in Christ is that which giveth the life and being to such as are effectually called and so become Members of the Invisible and Elect Church so the profession of true saith is that which giveth life and being to a visible Church Upon this profession wee finde many that have beene incorporated into the visible Church and admitted to the priviledges thereof even by the Apostles themselves Act 8.37 38. 16.31.32 12. Yea and Simon Magus though he had neither faith nor the spirit of God yet because he made profession of faith was judged a member of the visible Church and baptized So the Church of Pergamus Act. 8 13. Revel 2.12 15. though it did toletate grosse corruptions in it it kept the faith of Christ and denied not his faith and was still called the Church of God The description of a Church which they give in the page 67. See our further answer to this in the defence we make for our people against the second Article of their third exception of their collection of Letters and conferences viz. That it is a company of faithfull people that truly worship Christ and readily obey him is utterly untrue it it be understood as needs it must of the visible Church for it every one that the Church may account a visible member be truly faithfull how is our Saviour to bee understood when he compareth the Church or Ministery to a draw-net which being east into the Sea gathereth as well that which must be cast away as good Fish * Matth. 13.47 48. And to a field where the Devill doth as busily sow tares as the Sonne of Man doth good Wheate * Matth. 13.37 39. or how shall that difference stand which the Scripture maketh betwixt the Lords judgment and the judgment of men if men may not account any members of the Church by their outward appearance and profession 1 Sam. 1617. Acts 13.28 unlesse they know them to have true faith which thing the Lords eye is only able to discerne Thirdly We hold and teach and maintaine against all Heretickes Arg. 3. and adversaries every part and Article of Gods holy truth which is fundamentall and such as without the knowledge and believing whereof there is no salvation Our confessions Catechismes Articles of Religion published and approved of our Church may perswade all indifferent men of this Yet was not Henry Barrow ashamed to write in the 10th page of his discovery That all the Lares of God both of the first and second Table are here broken and forsaken both of the Ecclesiasticall and

the losse of those things wherein the very life and being of a visible Church consisteth either to remove the corruptions that remaine amongst us or to establish those Church orders which wee want for although we doubt not but the whole truth of Christs doctrine may be lawfully taught though all the Magistrates in the world gaine-say it and practised also so farre forth by every Christian as the bounds of his particular calling permits and that it is the Magistrates principall honour in the sight of God and man to yeeld and submit himselfe to the instructions reproofes and censures of the Church so far forth as they are agreeable to the Word of God who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings Yet cannot we not see good reason to perswade us that the Church ought or may either pull downe corrupt Church government or erect the right discipline not onely without but contrary to the likeing of Christian Magistrates Thus much we finde in the Word of God Godly Princes First That in those publicke reformations of the Church which the word commendeth the Christian and godly Princes were ever the principall actors Secondly That for the want of publicke Reformation the Magistrate is every where blamed and no where the Church for ought we can find oft are the Priests and people blamed for erecting and practising Idolatry but never for that they plucked it not downe when their Princes had set them up Neither can wee finde whether ever the Church under a Christian Magistrate was by any Prophet either commanded to deale otherwise then by perswasion in publike Reformation when the Magistrate neglected it or reproved for the contrarie To that which they were wont to say then the Apostles were much to blame who in erecting the Church government never waited for nor sought the Magistrates leave and good likeing Wee answer that though without the Magistrates leave they did it Yet not contrarie to his liking or when he opposed his authoritie directly and inhibited it the never erected the discipline when there was so direct an opposition made against it by the civill Magistantes Secondly If it could bee proved that the Apostles did so then yet would it not follow that we also may doe so now for neither was the Heathen Magistrate altogether so much to bee respected by the Church as the Christian Magistrate is neither have our Ministers and people now so full and absolute a power to pull downe and set up orders in the Church as the Apostles those wise Master builders had Lastly though this were all proved Fisthly though we did voluntarily continue in those knowne wants corruptions having power to redresse them yet might we be the true Church notwithstanding that our Assemblies are throughly convinced in these points and that we having power to reforme that which is amisse doe yet voluntarily continue in those wants and corruptions yet might we be the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding for as true faith in Christ not morall obedience is that which giveth life and being to every true member of the Church so the profession of true faith in Christ rather than obedience is that which giveth the life and being to a visible Assembly So wee reade that many upon their profession of faith were baptized and incorporated into the Church a Acts 8.12 13 16 31 32. So that which made the Romuns a true Church in the judgment of Paul was that their faith was published throughout the world b Rom. 1.8 And generally that which made the Gentiles to whom hee preached a true Church was that they gave obedience of faith neither doe wee see what difference they will make betwixt the covenant of workes and the covenant of grace c Rom. 1.5 if they hold obedience to the Commandements of God necessary to the life and first being of a true Christian Church And as a wife ceaseth not to be a wife though in many things shee cease to be wilfully disobedient to her husband unlesse she sin either by desertion or whoredom and be divorced So neither the Church ceaseth to be the Church and Spouse of Christ till she be both sufficiently convinced of Atheisme or Idolatry and be divorced also the Lord taking from her His Word and Sacraments and all other his spirituall Jewells and Ornaments In the third Chapter of Ieremy both Israel and Iudah were charged with Idolatry and yet must we needs confesse that they still continued the true Church of God unlesse wee will say there was at that time no true visible Church in the world which was most absurd to affirme So the Corinthians being in the first Epistle convinced of the sinne of Idolatry d 1 Cor. 10.14 and other sinnes e 2 Cor. 6.14 12 21 13 2 the Church remaining in them as appeareth in the second Epistle f 2 Cor. 1.1 did yet continue to be the true Church of God notwithstanding and so are called in the same Epistle That which Henry Barrow in the 94. page of their refutation excuseth this Church by viz. that it was orderly gathered and established may as well bee alleadged for our Assemblies as for the Church of Cor. as we hope may appeare by that which hath been above said in our Answer to the first Objection they make against the whole body of our Church He that was once a brother though he persist in his sinnes he hath beene convinced of not by one brother only but by two or three yea though he commit some presumptuous sinnes ceaseth not to bee a brother notwithstanding Matth. 18.15 16. how much lesse shall a Church cease to be a true Church b Psalme 19. because it hath been convinced of some grosse corruptions by one or some few The high places were continued in Israel and Iudab and that under the Reigne of sundry good Kings notwithstanding the reproofe of many Prophets Yet were they of Israel and Iudah accounted the Church still neither did the Prophets cease to communicate with them c 2 Kings 1.3 15.3 Neither would those that remained in Babylon after the Proclamation of Cyrus which was also the Commandement of God d 2 Chro. 36.22 Ezra 2.2 to returne thrust out of the account of the Church as appeareth by the communion of them with the Church of Ierusalem and the bookes of Ezra and Nehemiah notwithstanding partly in feare of the danger partly in a love of the commoditie which they setled themselves in during the captivitie they did not build the Temple in person but only sent mony for the building Lastly the Apostle setteth downe a Rule which is directly contrary to this fourth Article of their first exception in these words Let us therefore as many as are perfect bee thus mind d and if in any thing ye be otherwise mind d Philip. 3.15 God shall reveale the same unto you Neverthelesse Whereto we have already attained let us walke by the

in the Reformation of their lives because partly for that they knew it not and partly for that they are hindred by authoritie they practise not the whole discipline of Christ And this rash judgment which they give of our people is so much the more blame-worthy because they cannot be ignorant with what care our people have sought by all good and dutifull meanes the Reformation of the Church And how much they have be wailed and mourned for the want thereof for which matter also wee referre the Reader to the answer we have above given to their fourth and fifth objections against the whole body of our Assemblies Secondly Our people deserve not to be blamed for that they erect not the discipline for First They esteeme both our Prince to be a most lawfull and a Christian Magistrate and our Ministers to bee true Ministers of Christ by whose meanes seeing they have received from God and do still enjoy not those blessings only that belong to the comfort of this life but the meanes of eternall happinesse and the effectuall assurance of it also they are justlie afraid that by enterprising a publike Reformation not only without but contrary to the direction and liking of them who by Gods Word ought to have if not the only yet the principall hand in that worke they should highly offend God 2. They cannot finde any warrant in holy Scripture for them that are private Members of the Church to erect the discipline no not though the Magistrate and Ministers who should deale in this worke were altogether profane and ungodlie in deviding the Land of Canaan which was a type of Heaven and of the Church under the Gospell and in all the Church causes that were dealt in under the government of Iosua which was a type of Christs government neither private persons nor the whole multitude had the managing of matters Iosh 19.51 21 1. 22 14 but the people did all by the Elders and chiefe Fathers a which also was commanded b Numb 34.16.28 So in publike Church causes under the Gospell the Lord hath ordained certaine speciall men chosen out from among the people by their consent to rule and governe the rest c 1 Tim. 5.17 4.14 And where God hath sanctified and separated a speciall sort of men to any office or the administration thereunto belonging there hath hee restrained all others that are not of the same sort from doing the actions properly belonging to that office as may well appeare by comparing these places of holy Scripture together d Numbr 4.15 with the first Chron 13.7 10 Num. 4.20 with 1 Sam. 6.19 Num. 16.40 3.10 Heb. 5.4 with 2 Chron. 26.16 19. Acts 14.23 Therefore also wee see the faithfull at Listra ●conium and Antiochiah l ad no Elders till the Apostles by their consent ordained them No more had they at Creta till Ti●us was sent to that purpose To the places of holy Scripture which they alleadge for this their second Objection against our people we answer First That some of them a Ier. 31.34 Ezech. 44.8 9. Cant. 4.7 1 Pet. 2.9 Acts 15.9 concerne the invisible Church and therfore are ignorantly applyed to the description of them that are members of the Church visible As if no measure of faith and holinesse were to be allowed by men in the judging of the members of the Church visible but that onely which the Lord Himselfe alloweth of in juding of the elect Members of the visible Church Whereas it is evident that to the making of the Members of the visible Church an outward obedience and profession of faith is sufficient though there be no inward grace nor truth in the heart Secondly That some of them require indeed that every Christian should seeke the Kingdome of God and the place where God is worshipped according to his Word submit themselves to the Yoke of Christ and to obey him in all his Ordinances but that the people without either the Magistrate or Ministers helpe or consent should reform the Church and erect the discipline they are so farre from commanding that if they be well compared with that wee have above said they will be found to command the contrarie The third thing they object against our people Is That though some of them had once beene faithfull yet by tollerating in their Assemblies the open prophane by wanting power to cast them out and communicateing with them in their worship of God they are now become not ue Church of Christ Whereunto we answer First that the godly which are in our Assemblies do not at all tollerate the wicked profane but doe as much as in them lieth shew their dislike to them mourning also for their profanenesse and for the want of Christian discipline whereby they might be separated Yea the very Lawes of our Church as hath beene above said doe separate from our Assemblies the open prophane Secondly admit they did not at all shut out the prophanie either because they know not their right or for that they are hindred and restrained to doe it or that they sin in not using their right in this case or if it were granted that the people even the private members of the assemblies had full authoritie given them by Christ without the Ministers or Magistrates consent to cast out and excommunicate the open profane the contrary whereof hath been before sufficiently proved yet might they as lawfully for want of power or for such inconveniences tollerate the prophanie amongst them and so forbeare the execution of their authoritie in this case as either David did spare Joab 2 Sam 3 39. 2. Kings 14 5. or Amaziah those rebels that slew his father because they were not strong enough doe justice upon them Thirdly the communicating in Gods service with these open sinners Thirdly they may be true members of the Church though they doe communicate in Gods worship with the open profane as may appeare by the example of the godly that lived under the law whom the godly in some of our assemblies are enforced to communicate with or to want the benefit of Gods publike worship is not sufficient either to make him profane or pollute unto them the holy things of God for proofe whereof we alleadge First the examples of the godly that lived under the Ceremoniall law The Prophets either served not God at all in the Temple or else they joyned in Gods service with many that were notoriously stained with grosse sinnes for who are they whose sinnes the Prophets so mightily cry out upon (d) Esay 1.10 Jer. 5.1.9 and 7 8.11 Ezek. 16 4●.52 and 22 25.26 but such as were admitted to the publike worship of God If the Babylonians and the Caldeans should violently have included themselves into the Church assemblies of Gods people in the time of their captivitie should the godly Jewes by such presence of the wicked which they wanted power to hinder either have beene perswaded to cease

1 Cor. 2.2 Eph. s 2.19 22. and therefore when the Apostle saith that the Church is built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles his meaning is not to call every thing contained in their writings the foundation of the Church But that this foundation wee have spoken of is there to be found and hath witnesses from thence and that all the writings and doctrines of the Apostles and Prophets doe bend unto stay and rest upon this one truth as the walls in the building upon the chiefe corner stone Lastly Arg. 4. All reformed Churches give the Testimony to us All the knowne Churches in the world acknowledge our Church for their Sister and give unto us the right hand of fellow-ship This Henry Barrow and Iohn Greene-wood denie in their 14. page of their refutation but they name not any one Church that maketh question of us whether wee were the true Church or no never yet was there any reformed Church made that question They are well acquainted with our Church by the report of them that have travelled from bence and sundry other wayes with our doctrine and Lyturgie our wants and corruptions every one Neither doe they only forbeare to shew their dislike to us or are content to preserve society with us which happily through humane infirmitie they might doe upon sinister respects though they approved not of us in judgment but they doe also hold and teach that what people soever hath so much as we is the true Church though the wants and corruptions are as great as ours are Now when we alledge for our selves the testimonies of the Churches Which strongly argueth that we are the true Church we doe not thereby as these men fondly conclude in the 14. page of their refutation make the word of men the foundation of our Church Nor doe we use these as our only and chiefe defence whereby we seeke to approve our selves either unto the Lord or to the Consciences of his people but such an argument wee take this to bee as in his due place hath much force in it and as God Himselfe hath sanctified for a principall help in deciding of controversies in this kinde the Apostles use to alleadge it as a matter of comfort to them whom they write unto that the Churches of Christ salute them (a) Rom. 16.16 1 Pet. 5 13. that they were famous and had the good report of the Churches (b) Rom. 16.19 2 Cor. 8 18 19 23.24 Galah 1.2 Saint Paul though hee received not his calling either from men or by men c nor was any whit inferior to the chiefe Apostles (d) 2 Cor. 12.11 yet doth he alleadge for the credit of his ministery that the chiefest Apostles approved him and gave to him the right hand of fellowship (e) Gal. 2.9 Yea (f) Gal. 2.2 he sought also their approbation and feared that without it he should have runne in vaine And which is yet more he seeketh to win commendation and credit even to those which he by his Apostolicall authoritie might have established by the example and judgment of other churches If those Churches which were planted by the Apostles themseltes might take comfort in the good opinion that other Churches had of them May not we much more If the Ministery of Paul and orders he prescribed to the Church received further credit by the approbation of the Churches Then their approbations give some credit to the ministerie and orders of the Church now The doctrine and word of God though to speake properly it received authoritie onely from it selfe and the Spirit of God yet hath it ever beene the rather received by men for the testimony the Church hath given unto it So our Saviour Christ saith That Wisdome is justified of her Children Matth. 11.19 Iohn 5.34 and although he affirmeth that he received not the record of men Yet in respect of the salvation and good it men he judgeth it necessary John 1.7 8 5 33 34. that Iohn Baptist should give Testimony unto him Now if this one thing furthered the damnation of the unbelieving Iewes that they would not heare nor receive Christ though testimony were given of him by one whom they knew to be sent of God shall not this further the condemnation of these men that they refuse to heare and receive us though we be commended unto them by the testimony of so many Churches of God Some cases there bee wherein wee are commanded to seeke for the judgment of the Churches and to account it the judgment of God else why did the Church at Antioch in a question that could not be debated at home seeke to the Church at Jerusalem for helpe especially seeing they had two such excellent men with them as Paul and Barnabas whose judgments they might safely have trusted unto (d) Acts 15.2 saith our Saviour that whatsoever they binde on earth shall be bound also in heaven (e) Matth. 18 18. and saith he not also to Churches of other Nations Shall he be accounted as an heathen or a Publican that will not regard the judgment and censure of the particular Congregation whereof hee is a member (f) Matth 18.17 and shall they not be much more accounted so that despise the judgment of all the Churches Must the spirits of the Prophets be subject to the Prophets amongst whom we live (g) 1 Cor. 14.32 and must not both people and Prophets be subject to all the Prophets and Churches in the world The abilitie to trie and discerne the spirits and doctrines of such teachers as arise in the Church is such a gift as the true Church never wanted (h) 1 Ioh. 4.1 Revel 2.2 neither could it bee the pillar and ground of truth (i) 1 Tim 3.15 if it should be ignorant of a truth so necessary to the salvation of men as this is viz. What people is accounted to be the true Church of God if God hath given his Church power to judge and pronounce a particular man that he is in the state of salvation and that so infallibly that he hath promised to ratifie in heaven the judgment which the Church shall in this case give upon earth (k) Matth. 18 18. may it not bee said that hee hath much more made the Church able to discerne and pronounce of a Congregation or people that is a true visible Church which is a matter of no such difficultie as the other So that to conclude though those men make so light of the judgment and testimony of other Churches 1 Cor. 14 36. as if the Word of God had come out from them onely or as if themselves were able to judge of us better than all the godly learned besides Yet doe wee take much comfort and assurance from hence that we are the true Church of God Now it remaines that we answer such reasons as are objected against our Church bythem Objections answered THe first thing that they

workes viz. preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments the censures of admonition suspension excommunication and provision for the necessitie of the poore are in many of our Assemblies performed and by Law ought to be in all that there ore we cannot justlie be said to be without the discipline of Christ but rather that we having the discipline of Christ which is most substantiall doe want the other and so exercile it not rightlie that is to say not by those Officers which Christ ●ath appointed Secondly It is well knowne that the chiefe works and discipline Secondly The chiefe workes of Christs Discipline are exercised with us even by those Officers that he appointed namely the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments and consequentlie the principiall part of that power to binde and loose which Christ gave to his Church is not only exercised in manie o● our Assemblies but exercised also by those very Officers which Christ hath appointed for us the Lawes of our land doe authorize the Minister to staie from the Lords Table all such as are uncatechised and out of charitie or any otherwise publike offenders as appeareth in the Rubrick before the Communion and in that which is after confirmation And from whence else commeth the trouble of many of our Ministers but from the exercising of this authoritie even from the suspending of the ungodly from the Sacrament and stinging their consciences by the preaching of the word Thirdly Thirdly though the ●●●p●ine were not exercised at all with us it could not therefore follow that we have it not Fourthly Though even through ignorance or fearefulnesse wee were kept frō it yet might wee have right and authoritie to use it Though none of our Assemblies did use this power it followeth not from therce that we have it not No more than it doth follow that the rich churle hath no monie because he useth none and that a man therefore hath no authoritie because hee doth not exercise any Fourthly Admit we were not able through want of knowledge and courage to use this power Yet followeth it not that therefore wee want the right and authoritie to use it For if those Churches which the Prophet reproveth a Ezek. 22.26 for putting no difference between the holy and prophane or that which the Apostle blameth for not putting the incestuous person from among them had they wanted authoritie to use this power how could they justlie have beene reproved for neglecting the exercising thereof Lastly Though it were granted that we wanted both the exercise of the Churches censures and some of those Officers which our Saviour hath appointed to exercise them by Yet might wee bee a true visible Church notwithstanding there was a true Church in Iudah all the daies of Asa b 1 Cor 5.1 2. and Iehosaphat a 2 Chro. 15.9.10 17 5 9 yet was not the discipline reformed there till the latter daies of Iehosaphats Reigne b 2 Chro. 19 8 11. Ezek 22.26 That also was a true Church even then when the Apostles found this fault with them d 1 Cor. 5.1 2. the Congregation at Samariah is called a Church before the discipline was established there And even in Jerusalem there was a famous visible Church of Christ long before sundry parts of the discipline for want whereof they condemne us were established there yea it is evident that by the Apostles themselves diverse Churches were gathered some good space of time g Acts 13.43 14 11 21 23. Tit 5.5 before the discipline was setled or exercised e Acts 8.12.19 31. Acts 2.41 42. by all which is manifest that how necessary soever those parts of the discipline which we want be to the beautie and well being or preservation of the Church Yet are they not necessary to the being therof but that a true Church may be without them And as we may well call him a man that wanteth not only sundry parts of his body as an Arme or a Legge or Eye but is also distempered much even in the Braine and Liver and heart and the rest of the vi●all parts so may wee rightly call that a Church which not only wanteth sundry of those Officers which Christ hath ordained but hath also even in the ministerie of the word and the profession of the true faith which are as it were the braine and heart of a true Church much maimednesse and distemper The places of Scripture which they alleadge to disprove this which wee have said are unskilfully applyed In the collection of Letters and conferences page 69. Ephes 4.11 12. Rom. 12.8 for the one of them mentio eth no other ordinary officers out Pastors and Teachers which our Church professeth the other though it proveth there should bee other Officers besides them there named yet doth it not affirme that without them there can be no true Church OBJECT IIII. The fourth thing which they object against the whole body of our Assemblies is this Object The fourth Objection against the whole body of our Assemblies is that we stand under the Popish Church government w●● reason also is insufficient to warrant their separation That we stand under us they say a false and Antichristian government for that wee are directed by and subject to Canons Courts and authoritie of the Bishops which they do not content themselves in the 68.69 page of their collection of Letters and conferences to call Popish and Antichristian and Aegyptian and Babylonish Tokes but in regard thereof they say our Assemblies Cast our Sathan by the power of Sathan To this fourth objection we make this answer First Seeing it hath beene already shewed that the discipline which our Church exerciseth is in substance the same with that which Christ instituted they cannot with any colour of truth say that all our Church government is Popish and Antichristian but only that it is popishly and corruptly administred Answ 1. The substance of our discipline is Christ and not Antichrists 2 Thes 10.11 2 Tim. 4.1.3 1 Iohn 2.22 1 Iohn 4 3. Iohn 7. Revel 13.5 16. Secondly Though it were confessed that in the callings and authoritie of the Bishops there bee diverse things Antichristian Yet see we not how our Bishops could truly be called Antichrists or Antichristians because first the word when it describeth Antichrist and teacheth us how to know him useth to marke him out by his false doctrine Neither can we find in holy Scripture any such accounted an Antichrist or Antichristian who holding the truth of doctrine and professing all the fundamentall Articles of the faith doth swerve either in judgment or practise from that rule which Christ hath given for the discipline of his Church Now it is evident that our Bishops both doe and by the Lawes of our Land ought to hold and teach all doctrines and truths that are fundamentall Yea some of them have learnedly and soundly maintained the truth against Heretickes