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act_n church_n member_n visible_a 3,063 5 9.7114 5 false
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A26911 The defence of the nonconformists plea for peace, or, An account of the matter of their nonconformity against Mr. J. Cheney's answer called The conforming nonconformist, and The nonconforming conformist : to which is added the second part in answer to Mr. Cheney's Five undertakings / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1680 (1680) Wing B1238; ESTC R10601 97,954 194

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whether_o it_o be_v certain_a by_o god_n word_n that_o infant_n baptise_a die_a before_o actual_a sin_n be_v undoubted_o save_v §_o 1._o i_o expect_v your_o work_n have_v be_v to_o convince_v man_n of_o the_o good_a of_o conformity_n but_o see_v it_o be_v to_o save_v man_n from_o be_v seduce_v by_o my_o directory_n you_o may_v doubt_v whether_o you_o will_v not_o rather_o tempt_v some_o impartial_a man_n to_o read_v the_o word_n and_o then_o your_o work_n be_v spoil_v when_o they_o compare_v they_o with_o your_o accusation_n §_o 2._o i_o look_v for_o some_o plain_a text_n of_o scripture_n to_o prove_v this_o both_o certain_a by_o god_n word_n and_o undoubted_a but_o find_v none_o such_o i_o humble_o beseech_v you_o hereafter_o when_o you_o have_v mind_n to_o show_v your_o argumentative_a strength_n leave_v out_o the_o abusive_a pretence_n of_o the_o word_n of_o god_n holy_a thing_n must_v be_v holy_o use_v §_o 3._o your_o first_o argument_n be_v that_o a_fw-la carnal_a christian_a 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know_v any_o thing_n of_o their_o people_n gross_a ignorance_n infidelity_n atheism_n yea_o or_o scandal_n who_o can_v know_v so_o few_o of_o the_o person_n much_o less_o can_v the_o bishop_n 10._o do_v you_o think_v that_o it_o be_v exercise_n enough_o of_o this_o discipline_n when_o about_o 5000_o in_o a_o year_n only_o communicate_v to_o leave_v 20000_o or_o 30000_o more_o as_o member_n of_o the_o church_n in_o that_o parish_n that_o use_v not_o to_o communicate_v or_o else_o may_v come_v when_o they_o will_v extraordinary_o to_o save_v they_o from_o the_o law_n though_o utter_o unknown_a to_o the_o minister_n and_o so_o proportionable_o in_o parish_n half_a as_o big_a and_o how_o be_v it_o possible_a this_o can_v be_v amend_v rebus_fw-la sic_fw-la stantibus_fw-la and_o will_v not_o so_o many_o good_a man_n amend_v it_o be_v it_o possible_a oh_o draw_v not_o the_o guilt_n of_o so_o many_o and_o such_o thing_n on_o yourself_o without_o cause_n be_v it_o as_o small_a a_o thing_n as_o 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lay-baptizers_a but_o lay-preacher_n lay-administer_n of_o the_o lord_n supper_n or_o by_o contradiction_n lay-priest_n 4._o you_o plead_v for_o conformity_n and_o may_v easy_o know_v that_o the_o church_n of_o england_n abhor_v this_o opinion_n 5._o when_o king_n henry_n the_o eight_o be_v call_v head_n of_o the_o church_n to_o avoid_v the_o papist_n calumny_n queen_n elizabeth_n and_o king_n james_n have_v publish_v their_o disclaim_n of_o that_o power_n of_o word_n and_o sacrament_n call_v that_o of_o the_o key_n and_o if_o my_o ear_n deceive_v i_o not_o i_o have_v hear_v our_o present_a king_n profess_v the_o same_o 6._o the_o judgement_n and_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o all_o age_n and_o place_n since_o christ_n be_v against_o you_o i_o think_v helvetia_n itself_o not_o except_v and_o shall_v this_o be_v nothing_o to_o you_o who_o call_v on_o we_o to_o reverence_v the_o old_a conformist_n 7._o the_o reason_n of_o the_o institution_n full_o satisfy_v i_o it_o be_v not_o 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plead_v for_o so_o dangerous_a a_o thing_n as_o church-levelling_a or_o so_o much_o overthrow_n of_o the_o necessary_a sacred_a office_n and_o set_v yourself_o against_o the_o judgement_n and_o practice_n of_o the_o christian_a church_n but_o all_o man_n have_v their_o hour_n of_o temptation_n and_o all_o do_v not_o overcome_v §_o 5._o you_o say_v the_o excommunication_n be_v of_o no_o force_n till_o publish_v by_o the_o parish-minister_n who_o have_v power_n if_o he_o please_v to_o make_v it_o his_o text_n and_o declare_v the_o nature_n use_n and_o end_n etc._n etc._n ans._n 1._o i_o have_v rather_o have_v a_o better_a text._n 2._o it_o be_v of_o force_n if_o another_o publish_v it_o 3._o it_o be_v part_n of_o the_o true_a charge_n of_o the_o minister_n himself_o
and_o the_o english_a sort_n of_o godfathers_n you_o may_v refuse_v to_o say_v the_o word_n of_o prayer_n which_o imply_v his_o salvation_n over_o the_o dead_a who_o be_v excommunicable_a though_o not_o excommunicate_v you_o may_v understand_v the_o article_n which_o profess_v the_o certainty_n of_o baptise_a infant_n salvation_n of_o those_o only_a that_o be_v the_o child_n of_o faithful_a parent_n or_o pro-parent_n you_o may_v say_v you_o assent_v to_o all_o in_o the_o book_n and_o mean_v not_o all_o but_o some_o part_n and_o that_o not_o as_o true_a but_o as_o usable_a you_o may_v profess_v consent_n to_o use_v it_o all_o and_o yet_o not_o mean_a to_o use_v the_o calendar_n or_o rubric_n or_o to_o administer_v the_o sacrament_n otherwise_o than_o as_o aforesaid_a you_o may_v say_v or_o subscribe_v or_o swear_v that_o it_o be_v on_o any_o pretence_n whatsoever_o unlawful_a to_o take_v arm_n against_o any_o commissioned_n by_o the_o king_n and_o mean_v only_o such_o as_o be_v lawful_o 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that_o give_v the_o sacrament_n to_o one_o that_o kneel_v not_o or_o that_o the_o nonconformist_n be_v ipso_fw-la facto_fw-la excommunicate_a etc._n etc._n have_v the_o bishop_n authority_n to_o say_v the_o contrary_a 8._o and_o you_o know_v that_o i_o write_v not_o to_o accuse_v you_o or_o any_o man_n for_o conform_v but_o to_o tell_v they_o that_o judge_v we_o worthy_a to_o be_v silence_v and_o ruin_v what_o our_o nonconformity_n be_v and_o what_o use_v then_o be_v your_o own_o latitude_n to_o i_o or_o such_o as_o i_o though_o i_o go_v your_o own_o way_n for_o i_o have_v ask_v and_o hear_v the_o opinion_n of_o divers_a bishop_n already_o and_o they_o have_v say_v clean_o contrary_a to_o you_o i_o have_v hear_v he_o that_o first_o forbid_v i_o preach_v in_o his_o diocese_n say_v that_o the_o liturgy_n forbid_v deliver_v the_o sacrament_n to_o any_o that_o kneel_v not_o i_o can_v show_v it_o you_o under_o his_o hand_n that_o the_o priest_n must_v not_o be_v judge_n when_o to_o omit_v the_o forementioned_a word_n at_o the_o burial_n of_o the_o dead_a nor_o tolerate_v in_o such_o liberty_n as_o you_o presume_v on_o i_o have_v be_v tell_v by_o a_o bishop_n that_o see_v christ_n die_v for_o all_o the_o child_n of_o any_o parent_n in_o the_o world_n have_v right_a to_o baptism_n and_o any_o man_n have_v as_o good_a right_n to_o present_a to_o it_o a_o infidel_n child_n as_o to_o take_v in_o a_o expose_v infidel_n child_n to_o his_o house_n in_o charity_n i_o tell_v you_o that_o bishop_n sanderson_n public_o before_o the_o bishop_n nemine_fw-la contradicente_fw-la tell_v i_o that_o i_o need_v not_o question_v baptise_v any_o infidel_n child_n if_o godfathers_n present_v he_o according_a to_o the_o order_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v we_o not_o then_o conclude_v against_o conformity_n by_o the_o bishop_n judgement_n by_o your_o own_o rule_n and_o must_v not_o you_o be_v a_o nonconformist_a in_o the_o diocese_n of_o any_o such_o bishop_n as_o these_o 9_o and_o by_o your_o rule_n a_o man_n must_v be_v a_o conformist_n in_o one_o bishop_n diocese_n and_o a_o nonconformist_a in_o another_o and_o change_v his_o mode_n of_o religion_n as_o he_o travel_v or_o do_v change_v his_o dwelling_n i_o imagine_v that_o by_o your_o rule_n i_o may_v partly_o conform_v in_o the_o diocese_n of_o london_n or_o lincoln_n hereford_n or_o carlisle_z but_o i_o shall_v be_v as_o nonconformable_a as_o i_o be_o in_o the_o diocese_n of_o winchester_n ely_z york_z norwich_n and_o any_o other_o as_o far_o as_o i_o yet_o know_v i_o conclude_v that_o your_o catholicon_n may_v purge_v yourself_o from_o all_o nonconformity_n but_o it_o be_v utter_o unprofitable_a to_o i_o facile_fw-la credimus_fw-la quod_fw-la volumus_fw-la i_o have_v have_v as_o much_o reason_n as_o you_o to_o be_v willing_a to_o find_v conformity_n lawful_a if_o it_o be_v so_o i_o have_v lose_v many_o thousand_o pound_n more_o by_o nonconformity_n than_o you_o have_v get_v by_o conformity_n but_o i_o have_v no_o such_o bias_n on_o my_o will_n as_o shall_v set_v all_o my_o wit_n on_o work_n to_o find_v or_o buy_v a_o rope_n for_o my_o conscience_n and_o i_o find_v nothing_o better_o that_o you_o offer_v i_o herein_o §_o 4._o when_o you_o have_v tell_v we_o where_o no_o godfathers_n can_v be_v have_v we_o must_v christen_v without_o and_o such_o like_a you_o say_v and_o this_o be_v the_o common_a sense_n put_v upon_o the_o law_n by_o the_o lawmaker_n themselves_o that_o be_v by_o the_o bishop_n ans._n what_o reason_n do_v you_o think_v we_o have_v in_o such_o a_o historical_a assertion_n to_o believe_v your_o bare_a word_n in_o what_o synod_n do_v they_o declare_v it_o why_o do_v you_o neither_o name_n the_o bishop_n nor_o the_o time_n or_o place_n or_o witness_v by_o which_o it_o may_v be_v prove_v the_o common_a sense_n but_o can_v you_o think_v this_o shall_v convince_v i_o that_o know_v it_o to_o be_v false_a §_o 5._o you_o tell_v we_o pag._n 119._o if_o it_o be_v a_o part_n of_o assent_n and_o consent_n that_o ordination_n by_o good_a and_o substantial_a presbyter_n be_v null_a it_o will_v be_v a_o hard_a point_n indeed_o to_o unchurch_n church_n and_o unbaptize_v the_o baptise_a and_o plead_v the_o cause_n of_o satan_n the_o pope_n and_o all_o malignant_n of_o the_o ministry_n in_o the_o name_n of_o christ._n ans._n excuse_v we_o then_o for_o not_o conform_v i_o before_o give_v you_o this_o proof_n that_o it_o be_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o lawmaker_n or_o bishop_n they_o that_o abhor_v reordination_n or_o twice_o ordain_v to_o the_o priesthood_n and_o yet_o require_v those_o to_o be_v ordain_v by_o bishop_n who_o be_v before_o ordain_v by_o presbyter_n must_v be_v judge_v to_o hold_v the_o say_a ordination_n by_o presbyter_n to_o be_v null_a but_o etc._n etc._n ergo._fw-la §_fw-la 6._o 1._o you_o say_v no_o man_n that_o i_o know_v of_o take_v the_o silence_v minister_n and_o those_o ordain_v by_o presbyter_n only_o for_o no_o minister_n at_o all_o unless_o one_o mr._n dodwel_n a_o high-flown_a man_n who_o conformist_n themselves_o do_v utter_o dissent_v from_o in_o this_o ans._n your_o ignorance_n be_v no_o good_a reason_n for_o my_o conformity_n if_o you_o know_v of_o no_o more_o i_o do_v read_v mr._n th●rndike_n of_o forbearance_n of_o penalty_n ask_v bishop_n gunning_n his_o judgement_n etc._n etc._n if_o your_o acquaintance_n be_v so_o small_a you_o shall_v not_o write_v of_o that_o which_o you_o know_v not_o §_o 7._o 2._o but_o you_o say_v all_z both_o ruler_n and_o people_n conformist_n themselves_o do_v own_o they_o for_o minister_n otherwise_o they_o will_v take_v some_o course_n for_o the_o rebaptise_v of_o all_o baptise_a by_o they_o ans._n do_v you_o ever_o read_v the_o conference_n at_o hampton_n court_n do_v you_o dream_v that_o all_o these_o take_v laymens_n baptise_v for_o null_n or_o do_v you_o conclude_v that_o all_o think_v what_o you_o think_v §_o 8._o 3._o you_o prove_v it_o from_o the_o toleration_n of_o the_o foreigner_n church_n in_o london_n ans._n how_o will_v you_o prove_v that_o they_o judge_v all_o true_a minister_n who_o they_o tolerate_v §_o 9_o 4._o you_o say_v the_o act_n against_o conventicle_n and_o the_o five_o mile_n act_n prove_v it_o 5._o the_o king_n proclamation_n for_o indulgence_n prove_v it_o 6._o the_o fine_n and_o imprisonment_n for_o conventicle_n prove_v it_o 7._o the_o allow_v four_o person_n to_o meet_v in_o private_a prove_v it_o 8._o the_o common_a sense_n of_o bishop_n divine_n and_o people_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n prove_v it_o ans._n you_o may_v next_o say_v that_o any_o thing_n that_o you_o see_v or_o hear_v prove_v it_o it_o be_v like_a these_o prove_v the_o contrary_a than_o this_o by_o this_o man_n may_v see_v how_o little_a satisfaction_n we_o may_v expect_v