auncient father whome neuerthelesse you regarde no further then you canne make them speake your language which if they doe not you canne shaue theire lockes and scrape theire tounges and make them pronounce Siboleth for Shiboleth as your purginge indexes doe proclayme vnto the worlde CHAMP This arte of shauinge and scrapinge I leaue to you and yours who are so accustomed thereunto that they cannot deale otherwise Your industrie in this kinde hath been sufficientlie shewed in the fewe precedent pages Our Indexes doe not corrupt the fathers wordes and sentences as you foolishlie or maliciouslie insinuate but they note plainlie the faults of later writers which plaine and open dealinge if you would vse no fault would be found with you PILK Fiftlie you will answere these scriptures which seeme to contradict your faith Then if the same right beloÌ„ge to Accius that is to Titius you will afforde your aduersarie the like libertie CHAMP You are not prohibited to vse it to your best and moste aduantage PILK Sixtlie you will sett downe the contradictory positions that the reader may iudge and the answerer finde what he hath to prooue if he will prooue anie thinge to the purpose But some of these positions you haue deuised out of your owne brayne which noe protestant euer allowed and so you fight with your owne shadowe and then triumph as Tereus the poet Vicimus exclamat mecum mea vota feruntur CHAMP You haue your answere to this in the refutation of your rolle of forged positions Looke backe thither and see whether you or I may be sayde to be deuisers or forgers of false positions MANVALL SECTION 10. Who is to vnderstande that though the protestants doe maintayne the negatiue parte in almost all the positions contiouerted betweene them and the catholikes yet is he not for all that not to be excused from the proofe of those points vnlesse he will withall confesse that in theÌ„ the protestants haue no faith at all but onlie a meere denyall of faith For faith beinge not a simple denyinge or not beleeuinge but a positiue assent and beleefe of such articles as are reuealed vnto vs by God it hath positiue groundes whereby it may and ought to be prooued euen in those points which are negatiue And therefore as catholikes doe prooue theire faith in these negatiue pointes that onlie faith doth not iustifie that we are not certaine of our iustification or saluation and the like So likewise are the protestants to prooue theire faith in these that there is no purgatorie no reall presence no sacrifice of the Masse and the rest vnles as is sayde before they will coÌ„fesse that they haue no fayth in these points but onlie a meere deniall of faith For it is a farre different thinge not to beleeue purgatorie to be for example and to beleeue purgatory not to be The first being a meeâ—e negatiue or deniall of anie act of faith the secoÌ„d beinge a positiue act of faith of a negatiue obiect Hauinge thus aduertised the good reader of these fewe thinges I leaue thee to peruse the treatise it selfe desiringe thee to expect onlie the bare positions prooued with the selfe text of holy scripture and some fewe fathers without anie flourishe of wordes att all The worke beinge such as it doth rather resemble the bones of a great bodie tyed together with dryed sinewes then a body througlie furnished with fleshe and other habiliments of friendlie nature For which cause thoughe to such as rather respect fashion then substance it may happe to appeare hideous yett to others of contrarie appetite for whose contentment it is speciallie intended it will not peraduenture be iudged altogether without forme PILK If non credimus quia non legimus bea sufficient argument as both the scriptures and the fathers teach vs we shall with noe great difficultie prooue our faith as well in the negatiue as in the affirmatiue CHAMP Non credimus quia non legimus is not a sufficient argument of faith but in such points only as are prooued neither by tradition nor by scripture of which sorte was the heresie of Heluidius denyinge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed virgin which falsitie beinge contrarie to the receiued tradition of the whole church not prooued by holy scripture was sufficientlie refuted by S. Hierome sayinge non credimus quia non legimus Which saying is not any argument for the deniall of such articles of faith as are proued either by scripture or traditions much lesse for them that are proued by bothe PILK For S. Paule proouinge Christe to be aboue the angells in regarde of his originall that he is the sonne of God Heb. 1. 5. and in regarde of his maiestie that he sitteth at his right hande verse 13. taketh his argument from the scriptures negatiuelie To none of the Angells he sayde c. CHAMP S. Paule taketh not his negatiue argument from the scriptures onlie but absolutly from all diuine testimonie sayinge Cui Angeloruâ— dâ—â—â— Or if you will haue S. Paule to argue out of the scriptures only tell me out of what scripture he concludeth this Nonne omnes suns administratoris spiritus in ministerium missi propter eoâ— oui hereditatem caâ—iunâ— salutis vnles you will suppose that for graunted vnto you which is in controuersie to wit that there iâ— no other diuine testimonie but that which is written this instance of S. Paules argument serueth you for nothinge PILK S. August often chargeth the Donatists to prooue theire churche out of the scripture and he will beleeue if not he will reiect them speciallie in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae if they cannott saith he reade these thinges in the scripture but persuade them by their contentioÌ„s I will beleeue those thinges that are written in the scriptures I beleeue not those thinges that are spoken by vaine heretikes I receiue not that which from without the scripture saith Tertullian thou producest of thyne owne without the scriptures our sences or expositions haue no creditt saith Origen Who will speake when the holy scriptures speake not saith Ambrose Many saith Hierome thinke Zacharie to be the Father of Iohn and that he was slayne because he preached the comminge of Christe This thinge because it hath no authoritie from scripture is with like facilitie contemned as it is prooued CHAMP All these sayinges of the fathers howe trulie soeuer cited which I will not stande heere to examine doe prooue if they prooue anie thinge that you are bound to produce positiue testimonies out of the scriptures for your negatiue faith if you will be thought to haue anie faith att all in them and not a meere denyall or negation of faith For you must vnderstande that it is one thinge to beleeue that there is noe purgatorie for example and another thinge not to beleeue that there is a purgatorie The first beinge a positiue act of faith requiringe also a positiue testimonie and reuelation of God thoughe of a negatiue article
thinge deliuered in the worde CHAMP That is properlie an article of faith that is beleeued for diuine authoritie whether it be written or noe as were all these thinges the fathers beleeued before the lawe written And because we beleeue the bookes of Genesis for example and the rest of the holy Byble to be written by Gods reuelation therefore doe we beleeue them to be holy scripture and to containe gods worde Which therefore is properlie an article of faith no lesse then the misterie of the blessed trinitie beleeued for the same authoritie PILK Vppon this grounde I answere first in generall that none of these points are articles of faith CHAMP Vppon such a false grounde you are like to builde a good answere Is it no article of faith with you that the booke of Genesis is written by gods reuelation Tell me I pray you vnto what kinde of knowledge or assent you will reduce it I will confesse you a maister in diuinitie if you can make it well appeare by what other act of knowledge or vnderstandinge we assent vnto this veritie besides the act of faith Which if you cannot performe as assuredlie you cannott you must needes see this your first answere to be noe answere att all but a meere supposall of a manifest falsitie PILK Secondlie I answere to euerie one in particular I answere to the the first That all canonicall bookes and euerie parcell thereof be such is prooued out of themselues For besides that the ould testament prooueth the newe and the newe the old for whatsoeuer we read in the ould testament the same is founde in the gospell and whatsoeuer is founde in the gospell that is deduced from the authoritie of the ould testament as Hierome speaketh so in speciall euerie booke prooueth it selfe both by its owne light as formerlie was shewed and by the testimonie of Christ of the Prophets and Apostles that were the secretaries of the holy ghost The testimonie of our Sauiour Christ. Luc. 24. 44. These are the wordes which I spake vnto you while I was with you that all must needes be fulfilled which were written of me in the lawe of Moyses and in the prophetts and in the psalmes Of S. Paule 2. Tim. 3. 16. All scripture is geuen by the inspiration of God and is profitable to doctrine to reproofe to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes Of S. Peter the 2. epist 1. 21. The prophecie came not in olde tyme by the will of man but holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost doe abundantlie prooue the bookes of the olde testament to be canonicall besides that there is not anie of them out of which some testimonie is not in the newe testament extant CHAMP Your second answere is as much to the purpose as your first Neither the old testament proouing the newe nor contrariwise vnles the one be beleeued before Yea you make your selfe ridiculous to all men by such a naturall or circulare proofe vnles you suppose the assured beleefe of some parte before For example if one shoulde demaunde of you how you knowe or why you doe beleeue those wordes of our Sauiour which you cite out of the 24 of S. Luke either to haue been spoken by him or written by S. Luke would you say that they euidentlie prooue themselues so to be surely this you must say both accordinge to your doctrine here and accordinge to the necessitie you putt your selfe into by denyinge the authority of tradition and of the churches testimonie And yett in sayinge that you shall euidently prooue your selfe to be senceles For there is noe such euidence of the thinge but anie man that is not moued with the authoritie of gods churche and tradition would esteeme it verie vncertaine and most doubtfull For vnles these wordes and that which I say of them I say of the rest of the scripture were God himselfe and spake to vs as imediatlie as he did to Moises and the rest of his prophetts they cannot be sayde to be knowne by theire owne light nor beleeued for theire owne truth Againe suppose you had certayne knoweledge of this by what meanes soeuer howe could you be certayne that he speaketh of those bookes of Moises psalmes and prophetts which we haue vnder those names This certainlie would be impossible for you to prooue seinge you reiect the authoritie of tradition and the churches iudgment by which onlie it is assuredlie prooued Furthermore you knowe that our Sauiour speakinge in his owne person required not to be beleeued but by the testimonie of his workes sayinge Nisi opera in eis fecissem 〈◊〉 nemo alius fecit peccatum non haberent Much lesse therefore doth he require that we shoulde beleeue a written booke to be his worde without other proofe then the selfe light of the booke which is not so greate as that of his owne liuelie worde◠The sayinge of S Hierome is nothinge to the purpose For he speaketh onlie of the mutuall consent and concord of the two testaments which to christians that alreadie beleeue them both to be the worde of God is no small confirmation of the veritie of the doctrine they both contayne PILK The Gospells of the Euangelists the Acts and Epistles of the Apostles the reuelation of S. Iohn prooue themselues out of themselues to be theires whose titles they beare And if we creditt the bookes of historians and Philosophers auncient and moderne diuine and humane to be theires whose names they carrie in theire foreheads what madnes were it to thinke the diuine scriptures not to be written by them who are said to be theire penmen after the defluxion of so manie ages wherein neuer anie good christian called them in question besides wicked Iesuits impure Manichees Cerdonians Marcionists and Ebionites CHAMP None of all these bookes say they were written by such and such as is manifest And thoughe they did yett were not this sufficient to prooue them theirs vnles it were certaine this were theire testimonie and that they were infallible in their testimonie As for the titles they beare there is the same difficultie For it is not otherwise knowne to be theirs then by faith and beleefe of which we seeke the grounde And if titles were sufficient proofes of the true gospells we should haue manie moe gospells then we haue as you cannot be ignorant Againe the Epistle to the Hebrues beareth not the name of anie of the Apostles and howe longe it was thought by diuerse not to be S. Paules you knowe vnles you be verie ignorant For the workes of other humane authors why doe you beleeue them to be theirs if it be not for the testimonie of all succeedinge ages brought vnto vs by tradition Giue some other sufficient grounde of your beleefe in this poynte if you can and if you cannot say you are senceles to reiect ecclesiasticall tradition in receiuinge the bookes of the Bible or else that your iudgment is foolishe and idle
neither baptisinge of infants nor baptisinge by heretikes are written in the scripture and yett prooueth both out of them This is the answere of that worthy diuine D. Fulke CHAMP Both you and your worthy diuine D. Fulke corrupt S. Chrisost who saith it is manifest by the testimonie of the Apostle that they deliuered not all by Epistles but manie thinges without letters marke these wordes without letters and see whether they will stand with your glosse You here confesse against your selfe that S Aug saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes is written and therefore consequentlie beleeued by tradition But you say he neuerthelesse prooueth both by scriptures He sheweth indeede by scriptures that they are not contrarie to scriptures but that they are either commaunded or warranted by scriptures he shewed not but recurreth to tradition and the authoritie of the churche So that the confirmation of your glosse vppon S. Chrisostome out of S. Aug is as voluntarie as the glosse it selfe PILK This is the answere of that worthie diūine Dr. Fulke to the obiection of the Rhemists cited not by him but by them out of S. Chrisostome which I wounder howe you impute to him except you would haue your reader to conceiue that he fauoreth your opinion which he directlie impugneth in that place CHAMP I knowe that amongst other peruersities of that affected wrangler Fulke this is one which for his name hath not the more but much lesse probabilitie because he euerie where impugneth the manifest truth Nor did I impute it to him for the end you say for I desire not his fauour in the behalfe of the catholike truth beinge a peruerse enemie thereof but for this reason that the protestant reader should not suspect the place to be cited by me more fauorablie then it was in it selfe Manuall Proofe 2. O Timothie keepe the depositum that is that which is committed to thy trust not certes by writinge For litle or nothinge written of the newe testament was knowne to Timothy then See a large discourse hereuppon in Vincentius Lirinensis PILK This is nothinge to the purpose For whether that which was comitted to Timothies trust be vnderstoode his flocke as Lyra conceiueth it or those gifts which were bestowed vppon him for the edifiinge of the people as Aquinas iudgeth it is farr from your inference that vnwritten traditions are of equall creditt with the scriptures Vincentius fauoureth not your traditions att all For that which was committed to Timothie is in his opinion the talent of catholike faith whereof he was not the author but the keeper not an ordayner but a follower not a leader but one that is ledd Loe this is the catholike faith contayned in the scriptures not traditions of other doctrine beside them or without them PILK The depositum which S. Paule speaketh of is the whole christian doctrine deliuered by the Apostles to theire disciples to keepe and to deliuer to others as is manifest by the wordes followinge in the same text O Timothie saith he keepe the depositum auoydinge the prophane nouelties of voyces and oppositions of falslie called knowledge Verie litle of which doctrine beinge then written it must necessarilie be vnderstoode of tradition And this is Vincentius Lirinensis doctrine which you cannott denie though you would obscure it a litle in wordes sayinge the depositum is the catholike faith where if you meane the thinges belieued you say the same that I say if you meane the act or habitt of faith you speake against common sence For that is not the depositum comitted to Timothie by S. Paule but the vertue of faith geuen him by God neither is it formallie opposed to the prophane nouelties to be auoyded by him but the vertue or act whereby we assent vnto the articles of faith and verities proposed vnto vs. Manuall Proofe 3. But if anie man seeme to be contentious we haue no such custome nor the churche of God Where S. Paule alleageth the custome of the churche as a sufficient disproofe of any practise why not therefore for the proofe of anie PILK Our question is of doctrines of faith to be beleeued and receiued of all not of rites and ceremonies concerninge externall order of the churche whereof the Apostle treateth in that place This therefore is nothinge to the purpose nor touchinge our question att all and yett S. Paule alleageth not onlie custome but geueth a reason of it in the wordes goinge before which you seldome doe satisfy your proselites but persuade them to beleeue and hange faith vppon your credit as if it were impossible you shoulde be deceiued CHAMP Our question is as well of manners or thinges to be obserued as of faith and so is the former Catholike position of the Manuall conceiued and sett downe neither is the authoritie of traditions either more fallible or lesse necessarie in the one then in the other Or if you thinke the contrarie geue vs some sufficient reason or proofe thereof besides your owne bare assertion Which if you cannot seeinge you are constrained by the euidence of scripture to admitte the authoritie of tradition in the one you cannott without wilfull obstinacie reiect it in the other And thoughe S. Paule geueth some reasons of his doctrine in that place yett he recurreth to the custome of the churche as to the most effectuall and forcible argument against those that are obstinat and contentious as you are Manuall Proofe 4. The things thou hast heard of me by manie witnesses these comend to the faithfull men which shall be fitt to teach others also Loe no worde here of writinge but of hearinge and teachinge by word of mouth Nowe hauinge prooued by scripture it selfe euident instances that manie thinges are to be beleeued that are not directlie contayned in scripture it appeareth a senceles thinge to demande proofe of euery thinge we beleeue out of scriptures PILK Whereas Paule chargeth Timothie to commend those thinges to faithfull witnesses which he had learned of him where there is no mention of writinge but teachinge by worde I woulde gladlie demande of this Papiste if he woulde with patience endure anie of vs thus wildlie reasoninge These thinges were taught and hearde and commended to faithfull witnesses therefore not written The Bereans hearde S. Paule teach but the same things they founde in the scriptures Thus Aquinas interpreteth this place these thinges which thou hast hearde of me and of Christe I say not of one onlie but confirmed by manie witnesses vid. the Lawe and the Prophetts So thinges were not onlie taught by worde but confirmed by the doctrine of the oulde testament CHAMP This reasoninge is not wilde but firme and good especiallie accordinge to your groundes who teach that nothinge is to be beleeued that is not written For seeinge it is no where written that these thinges which S. Paule taught and comended to Timothie to teach to others were committed to writinge you cannot beleeue that they were written but by
the other is a mere denyall or negation of faith of a positiue article and is as well in horses or asses as in men onlie with this difference that men are capable and may haue the contrarie positiue act but horses and asses cannot If your faith therefore of the negatiue articles which you houlde be of the first kinde you are bounde to prooue it by positiue testimonie of holy scripture If it be onlie of the second kinde then haue you no more faith in these articles then haue horses asses or other brute beastes Nowe to the fathers testimonies so farr as they may seeme to make anie thinge against the catholicke doctrine of traditions or the churches authoritie I answere supposinge they sounde as you sett them downe which I will not stande to examine here that whatsoeuer is prooued by traditions or the churches iudgment is warranted by the scripture which geueth testimonie to the churche and traditions Which answere is S. August lib. 1. cont Crescon cap. 33. PILK Therefore concerninge the profe of our faith in the negatiue points of purgatorie Reall presence Sacrifice of the Masse sith there is noe footinge for them in the worde of God we answere with Basill that it is not faith but a manifest defection from faith to denie that which is written or to bringe in anie thinge that is not written where as Christ IESVS our Lorde saith my sheepe heare my voice CHAMP The iudicious reader shal be iudge whether these catholike articles haue not much faster footinge in the holy scriptures then your contiarie negatiues Neither doth S. Basill anie wayes fauour you For he confirminge his sayinge with these wordes of our Sauiour my sheepe heare my voyce excludeth not that worde of our Sauiour which is more properlie his worde then the scripture For he sayth not my scriptures but my sheepe heare my voyce therfore he speaketh of the voyce as it is deliuered by worde and not as it is written PILK And yett to satisfy you we shall finde sufficient weapons out of the scriptures to lay these Anekims on the grounde Nowe as the Roman Emperour that meant to subdue Germanie brought out his armie and put them in aray vppon the sea shoore and presentlie charged them to gather shelles tellinge them that they were spoyles of the Ocean due to the capitoll So you hauinge marshalled your forces and putt them in order tell your reader that the whole body of them is but a Scheleton bare bones tyed together with drye Sinewes and then without question you will attaine a glorious victorie and bringe spoyles fitt for the vaticane Yet you doubt not but your treatise will please some mens appetite and I am of your minde for like lippes like lettuce Thus from your prolusion I come to your mayne battaille which thus you beginne CHAMP What sharpe weapons you wil finde in the scriptures for your negatiue faith or no beleefe I will with patience expect and hauinge with all indifferencie pondered them I will tell you with all sinceritie what weight they are of in my iudgment In the meane tyme I must tel you that your conclusion seemeth to me as litle wittie as all the rest of your discourse is learned and therfore findinge by the litle experience I haue of you that such lettuce sute well with your lippes I leaue them wholy to your selfe Manuall The first controuersie It is knowne that the catholike Roman churche doth admitte more bookes and parcelles of holy Bible for scripture then the protestants doe and consâ—quently acknowledge a larger Canon then they and yett notwithstandinge shee teacheth PILK The Grecians are euer children rightlie fitteth you Romanists that still lispe like littell children and excellentlie speake without sence For to say the catholike Romane church is as good sence as the vniuersall particular churche CHAMP It is your dull vnderstandinge and not our lisping language that maketh these wordes the Catholicke Roman â—hurâ—h without sence to you For the attribute Romane doth not restraine anie whit the amplitude of the signification of that worde catholicke or vniuersall either in reâ—pect of tyme or place as you ignorantlie imagine but doth onlie distinguish it from all such sects as falselie and presumptuously terme themselues catholike but dare not call themselues RomaÌ„s or Roman Catholickes As in former ages the worde catholike was added to the name christian for the same purpose as auncient Pacianus signifieth Therefore when we say a Roman Catholike we woulde say no more but a true and not a falsely termed catholike And because you are a member of one of those sects which are discried by this worde Romane you hate it as theeues hate the light whereby they are discouered PILK For who can conceiue the catholike churche to be Roman which was in the worlde before Rome it selfe was for it is the generall assembly of the Saints Heb. 12. â—3 from Abell the first iust vnto the last that shall beleeue in Christe as S. Aug speaketh Moreouer all the nations in the worlde not the Romans were promised to Christ psal 2. Aske of me and I will geue thee the gentiles for thine inheritance and the vttermost partes of the earth for thy possession and so S. Aug writeth that God promised to the seede of Abraham not the Romans but all the gentils and sealed it with an oathe by which promise it came to passe that manie nations not contayned vnder the Roman iurisdiction receiued the Gospell and were ioyned vnto the churche CHAMP There is no greater difficultie to conceiue howe the catholike churche may be called Roman then howe the christian churche which denomination began first at Antioch is called Catholike And if you would knowe he reason why it is denominated of Rome rather then of Antioche or Hierusalem it is because S. Peeter who was Bishoppe of Rome receiued promise of our Sauiour Christ that his churche shoulde be builte vppon him as vppon a firme rocke and that hell gates shoulde neuer preuaile against it Which promise our Sauiour Christ hauinge performed it is come to passe that the churche of Christe which was first called christian then Catholike is nowe called Roman and thus much for the name RomaÌ„ Nowe I woulde haue you marke that whatsoeuer you say in proofe of this attribute catholike you say in condemnation of your owne protestanticall assemblies which were neuer hearde of before Martin Luther no more then the Arrians were before Arrius and the rest of the sects and heresies before theire maisters and authours Which one argument had you but anie indifferencie ioyned with anie meane iudgment woulde be sufficient to make you detest the felloweshippe of such newe maisters PILK Besides the moderne Romane churche hath made a defection from that which the primatiue Roman church maintayned in so much that S. Paules Epistles written to the auncient RomaÌ„s may iustlie be called an antilogie of that Religion which nowe is professed in the cittie of Rome CHAMP Some substantiall proofe