ruling Elder is set up in the church and none before after this the Deaconesse and things concerning the Kingdom that is the church administrations were given them after Christs resurrection Act 1.3 by especiall direction P. 12. It was grosse when the word Church was only taken for your places of assembly c. Dr. The denomination of your place of meeting by the name Church when the continens is used pro contento is not incongruous but consonant to Scripture 1 Cor 1.18 with 20 22. Resp Sir it is incongruous for a man to quarrel with one agrees with him and to take the word Church in Scripture only for a meeting place is worse but I think I proved to your hand more clearly or Mr Mead for me that which you here assert in the same Book p. 56. from 1 Cor 11.22 But you were weary spending any more time and ink in the reading and correcting of this smoky piece and so left off before you came to the end and saw it not or rather you dare not deal with that as with this it comes closer to your coyned government Dr. Mixt Assemblyes do not make voyd the truth of the Church if Gods Ordinances be observed therein and the true Doctrine taught and received Resp 1. This is but your saying they do not it is little worth with those argue against you especially when it is against the truth 2. Your Hypothesis is drawn aâ— impossible for God's Ordinances cannot be observed in mixed societies 3. Shew me one church constituted of the Gospel constitution of a Nationall mixt society and I will shew you all others be the contrary constituted and more then 100 years after that were approved by approved Authors Pag. 12. There are to be three distinct Teachers in every Church Dr. It is not clear that these three are to be distinct and perpetuall in ordinary all this is said at random and without ground Resp 1. Sir it is as clear as Scripture can make them yet as clear as they are I cannot make your eies see them the smoke being on them take away the smoke and they will appear to be three distinct ordinary Teachers 2. That that was ordinary in the Apostles time that is to be ordinary in every true constituted Church for ever and it hath a Gospel ground but your single ministry hath no foot for a foundation from Christ but Antichrist you acknowledge Pastors and Teachers why have ye not them set up in your societies sure it will not suit with the constitution of your Church or with your profit or something Pag. 13. Galat 2.9 James is Evangelist Peter Pastor John Teacher Dr. These things are meer fancies without any proof from Scripture and altogether inconsistent with the Apostolicall charge Resp 1. Sir what means 2 Pet 5.1 where Peter calleth himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If not that in some constituted Church he was joyned with others in the ministry 2. Sir in my Treatise of The Resurrection of faln Churches I have proved by the testimony of Tertullian Ireneus and others that the Apostles were the Elders of the Church of Jerusalem men whose testimony is to be received before all the testimony of the Presbyters living 3. Is it more inconsistent with these to do thus among the Jews in the Mother Church then with Paul to do these among the Gentiles 2 Tim 1.11 and with Barnabas Peter and Iohn with Philip at Samaria Act 8.14.25 and why not at Ierusalem â—r Doctor Pag 13. That the Gospel was preached in the Synagogue as to mixt multitudes Dr. These proofs are such silly inferences that it is tedious to reflect upon them and examine them they are even ridiculous Resp Sir you are not the first have made a mock at the truth of the Gospel their disputing and reasoning differâ—d from Church teaching as a work of the Catechist which when men were sufficiently wrote on were separated from the multitude to the believers society as in the Acts 18.4 7 11. and is a thing deserves more study then you are willing to spare about it because it is opposite to your present designs Pag 14. the second part of ministry c. L. 1. Dr. This doth contradict that which he hath been saying all this while his argument formerly taken from the order of words for if the Doctor be the second part of the ministry next the Evangelist then the Pastor is not the second to the Evangelist but these are groundlesse whimseys Resp In the end of the page before I shewed from the words of Christ Math 23.11 He that is greatest amongst you shall be your servant Where I observed Christ shews the Evangelists work was to make way for the Church constitution and so ministred to the Teacher and Pastor And when the Church came to be constituted and that there were men fitted for the Evangelists ministry then some other was constituted to do that work without the Church and the Evangelist did minister the perfecting ministry to the strong men in Christ in which work the Pastor is next him though in the other his ministry preceded the Doctor And this is the groundlesse whimsey which was the practice of the Apostles in their ordinary ministry Paul taught at Corinth before he baptized and then baptized and when the church is constituted he leaves baptizing and that ministry and Evangelizeth 1 Cor 1.14 17. Act 18.4 7 8. Pag 14. Of Iames and Iohns Epistle Dr. The difference of Iames and Iohns stiles the one reproving of vices and faults sharply and the other perswading powerfully to the improvement of grace is no argument of any such thing as he would have inferred that he was a Doctor to the Jewish church in particular But indeed these things are so weak and silly that they are not worth the answering Resp See how this silly man makes the difference of the doctrine to be only in the stile as if the condition of the persons required it not as if any man in that society and to that people Iohn taught might have taught that Doctrine and applyed there that Iames taught â—t è contrario Mark 3.17 was not Iohn as well as Iames the son of thunder Think you among the Apostles was no other conduct of spirit then in your confused Babylonish teaching See if any Epistle writ to any church be like this of Iames Shew any ground from Iames Epistle that it was written to a constituted church I think I shall shew you shortly 20. why it was not P. 14. The whole Doctrine is for Babes Dr. The Apostle writes to young Men and to Fathers as well as to Babes how then is the whole Doctrine for Babes alone but this is like all the rest Resp 1. The Apostle as Apostle had an extraordinary call to write to Fathers and young Men of the Church as wel as Babes 2. That he writes to these is contained all in chap 2. vers 14. Now what and how much of Doctrine
Dr DVRIE'S DEFENCE OF THE PRESENT MINISTRY Being compared with the Gospel and Gospel Ministry turnes into smoke and vanisheth As is made to appear in the ensuing Treatise By a Witnesse of the Gospel JOHN BRAINE Gal. 2.14 When I saw they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel I said to Peter before them all c. Printed in the Year 1649. To the Honourable the Committee of the County of South-Hampton The Learned Assembly at Westminster and the Godly and wel-affected of the County aforesaid TO you first of the Assembly I commend these things because you are they to whom the Supreme Authority of the Nation hath committed the care and judgement of these and the like differences that you may judge between us and make publike if you please your dissent from what is not of Gospel proof on either part To you the Honourable Committee aforesaid I humbly present these also that you hereby may see that by this or by the other cries of men of diffeâ—â— judgements Is â—â—â—â—â—e 〈◊〉 â—o be spoyled or wounded by you spoyled of that by your word and hand-writing you have for my Ministeriall labours promised me it being the life of me and my great family or wounded in my name who have lived though in weaknesse according to the testimonies of Christ and give me leave to mind you that of God That the labourer is worthy of his hire To you my faithfull and beloved friends of the Soake the City of Winton and County aforesaid I leave this as my loving remembrance to you advising you to beware of the secret practises of men against the Gospel as of works of darknesse and deep dishonesty in them that do them from whome and from which things keep your selves And 〈◊〉 Mr Doctor Durie I challenge a breach of promise who near twelve moneths since by letter promised me your notes on my booke and you contrary thereunto send my book and your bitter notes on it to my adversaries what hand you had in the private communicating of them I know not but leave to God Sir in obedience to Christ onely I have forborne to returne you railing for railing nor would I have you for this thinke I have forgot any good I have received from you but acknowledge the least thaâ—â—ulnâ—sse Sir I have not wronged you a word as I know in trâ—â—scribing your noâ—es they shall be compared with the Originall at your command bâ— any indifferent man Sir all that I have done herein is for the Gospel my dearesâ— friend for whome I desire to forsake all and althings and yet rest Gladly yours to serve you and al the forementioned according to the Gospel service of God John Braine To the Reader Reader THese Notes of Dr Duries I found written on the margent of a Booke properly mine owne being Intituled The smoke of the Temple cleared by the light of the Scripture lying one Shop-keepers Table where I live which I taking away with me was after sent for to make appearance before two Justices of the County aforesaid who were desired to grant a Warrant to apprehend me Fellon-like therefore but honestly refused it who after on my appearance because I would not surrender the said book chosing rather to obey the Law passively in that point then actively I was and now stand ingaged to make appearance at the next Quarter-Sessions to make Answer before the Bench for thus illegally seizing on my owne proper goods being a book sent Mr Doctor upon his sending to one Mr Ellis for him to call on me to send him one of my Books as the said Mr Ellis told me and not give him one nor was it by me given now that this onely câ—uâ—â— aforesaid must he taken in the businesse I thinke cannot but seem strange to all that read it These Notes made in answer to the Doctor by me were of two dayes making which will plead for their imperfection for thy better understanding the Treatise the letter P. is put for what page of the Book called The smoake of the Temple c. the Doctor drew his observation from and the Scripture added to it shews the ground the Doctor drew his assertions from which I doubt not but will clear many things in Scripture hid formerly to the world and prove profitable to all that read them by beeing compared things with things But to come to the Doctors observations themselves he passeth by the three first pages as having nothing to object and begins with page 4. striving if he had strength enough to remove the Evangelist from his owne into anothers place and so I leave him to his lift and triall of his strength who may as soone by help of a leaver role the round world out of his place as the Evangelist out of his and sooner too so unable is man found to be when he strives against Truth Luke 16.29 compared with Eph. 2.20 P. 4. Doctor WHat is here said of the Apostles is appliable unto Evangelists Resp 1. This is petitio principii or a begging the thing in question Mr Doctor You would have it so 2. The Scriptures were given by Divine inspiration to the Apostles and Prophets but not the ordinary Evangelists 3. Nor are the Evangelists to be proved as the Apostles are to be in any extraordinary way in the Church God in 2 Ephes 20. saith the Apostles and Prophets are of the Foundation but not Evangelists Dr. I say those Prophets who were before Christs time are properly to be understood Eph. 2.20 because they were the foundation upon which the Church was built as appears by Acts 26.22 2 Pet. 1.19 yet I hold that the Prophets which are named Eph. 4.11 are distinct from those Antient ones these are not the foundation of the Christian Church but these were the Apostolicall office 〈◊〉 doth ementer 〈◊〉 comprehend these but not these for these were before the Apostles nor are the Prophets named Eph. 4.11 qua distinct from the Apostles but if at all they are to be â—united the foundation it is onely as in and under the Apostolical office Then besides by the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets is only meant the doctrine Apostolical and Prophetical whereof Christ is the substance that is the one corner stone and is it not so also in respect of the Evangelists Resp 1. For Answer to this confused masse take my owne words in my Book by Prophets I understand not only those wrot before Christs time but those wrot since also 2. Whereas he saith The Antient ones are not the foundation of the Christian Church It is clear the Prophets before Christ are in the same way a foundation to the now Church as the Prophets that were since 1 Peter 1.12 Not to themselves but to us saith the Apostle speaking to those under the Gospel administrations they did minister these things in a Church administration only they were not in this time 3. He saith The Prophets are not spoken
of qua distinct from the Aopstles Eph. 4.11 How sad a thing is it to see a Doctor so deceived are all the rest spoken of as distinct and doth he dream this is not see then if the Apostle hath in any other Scripture distinguished them if he seeth it not heer 1 Cor. 12.28 God hath placed in the Church first Apostles 2. Prophets see if God hath not distinguished them by a first and second This man would have confounded the Church Ministry mâ—king of two one with the men of his mind it is nothing to make all one 4. He tels us by foundation was not ment the Apostles but their Doctrine I having cited the text Eph. 2.20 this is clear enough expressed that it is the foundation of the Apostles not that the Apostles as the Papists say of Peter are the foundations of the Church there was no foundation for the Doctor to make this learned exception P. 5. Dr. The Church of the Gospel is built on the truths delivered by the old Prophets as is clear by Acts 26.22 Luke 24.27 2 Pet. 1.19 Resp To me it is much to see so grave a man fight with his own shadow for in this he hath not hit me at all I granted this in my Book which might wel have saved him his learned labour Dr. But the Prophets subordinate to the Apostles were no more founders to the Church then the Evangelists Resp For men of reputed learning and esteeme I see it is nothing to say any thing though never so clear against the truth Eph. 2.20 we are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets I provoke you Mr Doctor to shew where it is said that we are built upon the Evangelists Dr. Titus was no where called Evangelist was he therefore none Resp Mr. Doctor How shall I believe he was if the Scripture say not of him he was one I am sure you have no Gospel makes him such that ever he wrote unlesse it be one lately brought from Rome Dr. What need Marke and Luke be called Evangelists seeing their worke doth speake them such Resp You may easily see Mr. Doctor is good at the begging of the question and passing by the matter objected viz. That the Evangelists office 2 Tim. 4 5. is a ministeriall Church worke and not a writing work as I have proved at large in my Letters sent to the Assembly and printed but not Answered because you have not leisure as in your Letters formerly you say concerning this Book Dr. The worke of an Evangalist is not only to Preach but to order matters by Apostolical direction Tit. 1.5 Resp 1. This then shewes your Evangelist was no extraordinary officer in the Church for what he did he did by direction as you and I should do in the Church were we faithful and no otherwise 2. In my forme of Gospel Government for Gospel Churches and in this book you so sift to find chaffe in I have allowed as well Government as Teaching to the Church Ministry according to Jesus Christ and you prove no more for Titus is not for this worke here or any where called Evangelist nor were any where else for that particular act Dr. Is not the writing the history of Christ's life the worke of an Evangelist and if Marke and Luke did this why should they not be called Evangelists Resp An risum teneatis amiei Mr Doctor if they did this why yet should they be called Evangelists unlesse you can canonise them for such by authority of the Presbytery that now is Doctor And is not the work extraordinary was it not indited and directed by the Spirit in Mark and Luke as well as in Mathew and John Resp M. Doctor When you wrot notes on my Book and had it communicated in that disgracefull way as this was I thought you had not vented your self into such like Quries as these 2. A man would have thought your reading would have taught you to distinguish between an Apostle and an Evangilist 3. I thought my former letter to you of this point would have made you blot out this dul notion seeing the Gospel you so much talk of Luke 1. was by him but a setting in order things believed amongst us as himself saith and not inspired into him ver 2. As they delivered them to us And here M. Doctor Who were these but Mark and Luke and then by whom but by eie witnsses which were it is likely Matthew and John with the rest of the Apostles and it may be said of the seventy of which Mark and Luke were not but had it from them that were as is plain and clear to him that is not blinded Doctor And is not the hystory of Christ a fundamentall truth of the Gospel Resp And M. Doctor The Amanuenses of many of the Psalms thâ— Prophets the Epistle of the Romans Tertius Rom. 16.22 were not made there by Evangelists yet are their writings not authoritative they being dictated to by the Apostles and Prophets P. 6. Dr. Rom. 10.15 From Esay 52.7 Is not to be understood of the distinct office of the Evangelist as he differs from the Apostle Prophet Pastor and Teacher but to Evangelize there doth comprehend all the testimony of Jesus in all respects but especially of the Apostles worke and if this be so then from the generall denomination of Evangelizing the distinct office of the Evangelist can be no more proved to be ordinary then from the generall name of Messengers 2 Cor. 8.23 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that the Apostolical Office is ordinary as Preachers are in some sense Evangelists viz. in respect of the glad tydings that they preach Resp That Evangelizing was applyed to the whole Gospel ministry I granted and thence proved that it was an ordinary Office in the Church yet to teach and apply peace with the good things of the Gospel to the strong men in Christ onely was the proper worke of the Church Evangelist to which Paul applieth that of 1 Cor. 1.17 he distinguishing the Teachers Ministry under the act of Baptizing who taught also and the Evangelists Ministry which Paul in Corinth as an ordinary Minister officiated with other his fellow helpers 2. For your parallel place 2 Cor. 8.23 I would you would take your Bible and see how God distinguished these Apostles from the others 1 Cor. 1.1 Eph. 1.1 Collos 1.1 Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ the Apostles 2 Cor. 8.23 are Apostles of the Churches Sir I may say to you of this as Christ to the blind Pharisees ye errre not knowing the Scriptures so that this Scripture proves not any hinderance to my conclusion as you seem to affirme but that thence it appears because the name is given in common to the ordinary Ministry it was but an ordinary office in the Church which oft as Pastors and Teachers to remaine therein to the end Dr. That Timothy and Titus were imployed only about one place is so directly opposite to Scripture that nothing can
the Doctor could not understand it or rather would not as being a fine way of evasion it had been his wisest way to have done thus with all that he could not obâ—ect against which is materially against him as the rest P. 32. 1 Tim. 3.14 Dr. This place is neither rightly alledged nor applied rightly to the Apostles scope Resp The former part of the words were not truely Printed the latter which hath that which was intended are rightly obtained to themselves a good degree in the house of God which was to shew that any office in the house of God was of great honour and men should be content with any therein though the lowest P. 34. Heb. 14.17 Dr. The Apostle writes to all the Hebrews in the world Resp Mr Doctor how doth this appear I wil not take your word for it was Heb. 5.12 said to the Jewes of all the world or chap. 12.22 Dr. These had many leaders in several Congregations and he desires them respectively to be subject to them that is that each Congregation should submit to â—â—â— r â—wn Resp Mr Doctor Doth Paul write as John to the seven Churches or Peter to the dispersed in Galatia Capadocia c. that you dare affirm this you doe on these tearms and at last for your parochiall liberty or all were lost Doctor From hence you will infer because the word Leaders is in the plurall number that every congregation hath many leaders which is very weak Resp From whence shall I inferre but from the Scriptures James 5.14 and I provoke you to shew in all the Scripture where the whole Church Ministry are spoken of of any Church and are not set down in the plurall number and M. Dr. to say they should be in every Congregation is a conclusion of your own and none of mine I say in every Church as for the weaknesse of it I know it is not the weaker for your blowing on it But M. Doctor What think you of Acts 14.23 they ordained them Elders in every Church 1. these not Nationall Churches 2. Nor were they Elders ordained Doct. Then you say that these leaders are to be meant by the ministring officers and not ruling Elders by verse 7. but that verse doth speak of those that guide and rule _____ and no ruling Elders should be no others then such as are able to speak the word on occasion nor should those that speak the word be without a guiding and ruling authority for the leading is to be according to the word and by it which makes the Doctor and the Pastor to be the same Resp Mr Dr. the _____ are all here spoken of either ruling Elders or teaching Elders I speak according to your own distinstion but that they are teaching and not ruling Elders verse 7. They have spoken to you the word and for that conceit that the ruling Elder should be such 1. I require you to sâ—ew me the constitution of ruling Elders 2. The command or practice that any was to or did do such a thing if not Sir you doe but undervalue your selfe to write such things at all 3. You come with your old device and find away out of this text and every text to make the Doctor and Pastor â—nâ— but let me mind you if by divine institution they are two you wrong the truth and your self and the Church also to make them one and here spoke of as of diverse persons Sir I shall ingeniously confesse that of all the books I ever read of my little reading I never read any man that endeavoured to make Pastor and Teacher one as you have all along done and altogether opposite to the truth yea the Assembly propositions Adeo dat Eph. 4.11 the two last ordinary and perpetuall that is the Pastor and Doctor Wollebius Pastores Ecclesiis Doctores Scholis Praefecti Eph. 4.11 Arminius disp Theol. Corrol 59. mâ—diate vocati Pastores Doctores Episcopi Praesbyteri qui certis Ecclesiis sunt praefecti Calvini Just lib. 4. cap. 4. ex ordine Praesbyterorum partim eligebantur Pastores Doctores Bilson Vide Zanch praecep 4. cap. 19. and the Churches practice in New-England Pag. 35. People Ministers and ordinary ministry Doct. O these allusions and applications are no proofs of the point Resp which Dionysius they are as I have since the writing of my book read to good satisfaction and many more of the Antients though the Doctor saith it is nought P. 35. That the man of God may be perfect 2. Tim. 3.16 17. Doctor This perfection is the end and effect of the foregoing usefulnesse of the Scripture and from thence is to be inferred that by the Doctors and Pastors office rightly used the man of God will become perfect Resp M. Doctor Why do ye not adde the Evangelists offici you may as well for the Doctor nor Pastors office is not rightly used in your Presbytery but these rightly used with the Evangelist through the effect and usefulnesse of the Scripture make the man of God perfect Doctor And therefore none other distinct office in ordinary is requisite to infer because the word perfection is here used that therefore an Evangelists office is intimated as a meer fancy Resp 〈◊〉 Doctor 〈◊〉 Pastor is not mentioned yet they are allowed but there is no allowance for an Evangelist an ordinary Church-minister no less of God intended then the rest but is still cast off by Mr Doctor for and with the reproach of fancy notion whimsy P. 36. Evangelized Christian man Doctor What this Evangelized Christian man is distinct from him that is taught and governed I know not neither do I believe you can shew Resp M. Dr. As in Adam so in Christ there are differing statures you may being a rationall man understand the one by the other now as he differs in stature from children so should the administrations differ that are administred in the Church to him accordingly 2. That this Evangelized Christian should differ from one taught and governed by the Gospel is a conceite of your own and none of mine P. 26. 1. Doctrine is not for all but babes only 2. Exhortation for young men only Evangelical ministry for perfect men only Doctor Is not the teacher and the exhorter a Gospel minister this is a fancy indeed which hath no ground Resp Mr Dr. See Rom. 12.6 7. Prophesie is for the Prophet ministry for the Evangelist Teaching for the Teacher exhortation for the exhorter and is not the exhorter or teacher a minister in this place and is not this a fancy the Apostle speaks in this place or what saith the other then said before P. 36. 1 Cor. 4.1 Of that men are Ministers they are stewards onely the Dr. of doctrinall part the Pastor of the pastorall c. Doctor Is not the doctrinall of the Evangelicall part of ministry Resp The Gospel ministry is Evangelicall all but is divided into three parts by God in the Gospel one being not more Evangelicall then the other Doctor Why do you leave out the practicall which is the Pastorall charge Resp It s well you are so sensible as to misse one in my writing you doe not miss two in your Church one is enough you know not what to doe with any more but see Mr Dr. 2 Tim. 1.12 puts down Apostle the first of the Church ministry and Dr. of the last and under these comprehends the rest and will you not allow me this if not I will take it Dr. There is no more requisite but faith and obedience which two are wrought out by the doctorall and pastorall administrations what use is there of this Imaginary part of the Exangelist distinct from both Resp Mr Dr. Faith and obedience are ministred under Teacher Pastor Evangelist one as well as the other according to the capacity of those are taught each one by degrees perfecting Faith and Obedience in the Saints the Doctors Teachers faith and obedience to Saints as children the Pastor as young men the Evangelist as strong men and not as the Doctor dreams one teacheth faith onely the oâ—her obedience Thus the Dr. having done with my book I have done with him untill he please to rejoyn and begin again only this I commend to thee Reader that that which followeth in my Book did more particularly strike at presbytery which the Doctleft to some other to do or to some other time to do or afraid it may be it would trouble his mind to study it or what ever it was he thought he had done enougâ— in this for once and so have I at this time Vale. If thou hast any knowledge of thâ— truth of the Gospel hereby at all FINIS
Scripture as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act 20.17 he called for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thus that 1 Cor 12.28 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is that under these words set down in the plurall number the whole ordinary Church ministry are comprehended of Ephesus or Corinth and consequently may be of any other Church Now Reader judge where this be nonsense where a man but of small understanding may not apprehend it though not a Doctor and where it agreeth with the whole scope of my Book or not and how little cause the Doctor hath to call it nonsense Dr. If the thing in question had been proved these objections might have been made but now they are a begging of the question Resp Sir when God hath thrown down Babel he will prove it unto you then and I shall no need beg the Question any more nor if you would yeild to the truth I need not come a begging to you for these things at all P. 11. The third Church Dr. Where was the second Church spoken of For hitherto he hath mentioned only Rome to prove the point which hath yeildâ—d no proof at all Resp 1. The first Church which I now must make the second was that of Ephesians pag 2. O Mr Doctor have you this twelve month been making observations on my Book and pass over the subject of my discourse with so little notice as to ask where the second was sure that text of Scripture doth dazle your eie-sight when ye come to look on it because ye cannot see a single ministry in it it was a wonder that Antichrist did not see this would destroy his way of administrations â—â—r him Dr. Nor is here from this 1 Cor. 12.4 any word of proof but that there are severall administrations to generall persâ—nâ— And what then is therfore an Evangelist a distinct ordinary perpetuall Officer in the Church O silly silly weaknesse Resp Sir take heed lest you come in the compass of those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Cor 2.17 which are corrupters of the Word Sir how can these gifts belong to generall persons which are to be in every constituted Church ordinarily for which God hath designed severall administraâ—â—oâ—s in the Word Sir your generall persons is a tearm â—o generall to be used in controversy when you more particularly express your self I will more particularly answer you if this do not suffice you P. 11. Mark 6.7 Luk 10.1 Christ sends his forth two by two Dr. This is a proof like all the rest from the circumstance of a fact to argue a perpetuall institution is very weak Christ sends his Disciples by two and two and the ministry of the Gospel is not a single work therfore beside Pastors and Teachers there must be Evangelists in ordinary and perpetually in office What a senslesse consequence is this Resp This act of Christ was brought only to prove against a single ministry as now used the Church being not yet fully constituted 2. Whereas you make a great cry of nothing with a O Yes this is proof like all the rest from the circumstance of a fact Sir what if you had no more to convince you of your single ministry is not this enough was not here the sending of the Apostles and seventy to teach according to which pattern should not you walk by if you would walk in the truth had Moses more then the pattern to do all his Tabernacle work by Sir was this only done in one two or were not all the eighty two so sent forth and so commemorated by the Evangelists sure if the thing were so slight as you make it there would not have been that care to set it down there was And as these now so after they alwaies did in the Historie of the Acts go two or three together from this their former Commission Sir if men would believe you it were nothing for you to make nothing of overcoming the truth with branding it with senslesse consequence drawn by your self out of that was never intended by me and so if there be any senslesnesse in the consequence it is your own and none of mine P. 12. I shewed why Christ sent the Disciples and seventy by two and two and not by three because none were to officiate the Evangelists office while Christ was living and in this he was 〈◊〉 And whereas I said I remember not that the Apostles are said to Evangelize during Christ's being on earth Mr Doctor in his Scholia saith This assertion is false the twelve did Evangelize while Christ was alive the text saith it expresly Luk 9.6 Resp 1. I did not assert the thing but said as I did remember it is not said they did not I hastily writing did not examine it 2. That they did Evangelize as the Church Evangelists did in constituted Churches after Christ's resurrection I say that the assertion if Mr Doctor will have it so is true and the contrary false P. 12. The time of gathering Churches was not yet come c. Dr. Those that became Disciples to Christ to what were they gathered why were not they a Church that were united to him by faith as his members Resp Mr Doctor may satisfie himself concerning these Questions without my Answer I wonder he useth a why and what about it 1. Were there not many a one with him by faith that were not in publique Church Fellowship or in Church Ordinances with him as Lot Job and others before not circumcised many in the Antichristian church now are of Christ's invisible church Rev. 18.4 and no man will say these were in a visible church socieâ—y of Christ why were they called out else Nicodemus and others 2. The Holy Ghost will give another answer Act 1.4 they must tarry at Jerusalem for the Holy Ghost before they constituted churches yea in Judea and Jerusalem vers 4. and Eph 4.8 10 11. will shew you Christ went to Heaven before he gave thâ— gifts of church ministry to the church to be ministred unto in a church way as they after were to be administred Dr. Christ declares that M ses ministry was at an end with John the Baptists time Math 11.12 13. Luk 16.16 Resp 1. Neither of these Scriptures say that it was at an end but that it was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 untill John 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. from thenceforth the Kâ—ngdom of Heaven is preached Note untill John there was none else but Moses ministry and that it was not utterly abolished in John's time or by John Math 23.1 2. Jesus said to the Disciples and to the Multitude The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses Chair Whatsoever therfore they say unto you do ye c. This was in the last year of Christs ministry and after John the Baptists death and yet it is not abolished utterly if it were dead it was not buried 2. That churches were not constituted see the Historie Act 6. Deacons are set up in the church after 1 Cor 6.1 the
begin with an O yes still for fear least no man would not heed what ye say and did they heed you rightly they would take heed how they read your writings I hope you are more just in your cases of conscience 1. You acknowledge part of the truth but not all here are three sorts expressed and differenced clearly in their feeding why do not you ingeniously confesse it or deny it by argument but you confesse only what will serve your owne turne this will not availe in the day of Christ 2. You have two sorts of feeding the one with meat the other with rule yet both sorts are fed alike but Sir where is the third what is it or is it not in the Text or are you not willing to have it there or known it is there and then the Lambs are fed with Doctrine Sheep with rule 3. These are recommended to one man but was he not an extraordinary officer and were they not several administrations given unto him 4. If I prove the office from the Scripture by institution practise and continuance how can you say it is a new coyned office you have not one of these to shew for your single Nationall Church ministry in all the book of Christ yea in the Name of Christ either prove your call and ministry or lay it downe or this will be a witnesse against you at the last day Dr. If this be your clearest proof it is clear you have no proof at all but make your fancy and wrong application of the Text all your proof this proves no more then that Peter was fully re-installed unto his office and that notwithstanding his threefold deniall he was againe thrice admitted to his charge â—nd to all the objects and parts of it Resp Sir to all understanding men you clear up the truths of my Treatise and bring a darknesse on your selfe and judgement what twelve moneths time to find out Peters re-instalement and to put in a few empty lines and to put it in againe and againe you should have put it in a little further off if that were it you aimed at but Sir pray what do you make of Peter a Pope indeed or I pray Sir tell me what expresse Scripture have you to prove that Peter lost or was put out of his Apostleship or if you will his Bishops See that he was now re-installed and that nothing else but his three-fold re-instalment must be understood in this place I believe you had this from some Popish Priest or Postill pray Sir at the call of any of the Apostles had they a three-fold instalement as you here set downe if not why should they have it at their re-instalment had Christ prayed that Peters faith should not faile before he fell and shall his Episcopacy Sir I know none that lost his Episcopacy but Judas of the Apostles you are in a Popish dream the Lord awaken you are there several feedings of which one sort are fed with rule only good Mr Doctor P. 22. 2 Cor. 6.1 Dr. The Apostles meaning is that men worke together with God that is every minister is in his own work subordinate unto God it is then impertinent to make this inference it is not the work of one man alone many men may work in one and the same worke and one may have diverse workes as the objects differ one Shepheard maâ—â— at one time feed both Lambs and Sheep Resp Sir Hereunto I have not had 14 houres time to copy out your breviary and returne you this Answer in a little longer time I should deal better with you but any rational man that wil look on the Text and see your falaciousnesse may tract you and know you you say the meaning is that men worke togâ—ther 1. What men 1 Cor. 1.19 are they not we Paul Silvanus and Timothy or what were they 2. Where did they work was it not in the Church of Corinth 3. How did they work was it not together in ministry Now to this you seem to agree but then after in your after exposition because you feared the former like fire that might burn your double doctrine you fly to an exposition quite contrary to truth that serves your selfe every eie may see where you were going and as for part of the inferences they are like your doctrine corrupt and none of mine it is your chief art and skill to man inferences you make none good of your owne nor deduce those honestly mine P. 23. He that plants and he that waters are one 1 Cor. 3.8 Dr. By one in this place is not meant so much the ministry as the efficacy and vertue thereof that is they are as to the bringing forth of the effect as one thing that is of no efficacy but only outward instruments servants of God Resp 1. I cannot but admire how men do befoole themselves when they fight against the truth saith he they are as to the bringing forth of the effect as one and the same thing that is of nâ— efficacy it is learnedly cleared 2. Consider this is first spoke of Paul and Apollo and here relates to them and their ministry in the pronoun quis and after more clearly in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is unum â—â—ministerium againe every one hath his own reward according to his owne labour ver 9. we are labourers together now judge if here be not intended onely Ministers and Ministry and the Doctors glosse very spurious and corrupt worse then whimsicall P. 23. 2 Cor. 1.15 That in no constituted Church we read of no more but three in fellowship of Ministry ordinarily Dr. These are weake conjectures and can make no such in probability as are inferred on them Resp I beseech the Reader see I propose texts of Scripture and affirme that in no constituted Church were more or should be lesse the Doctor cannot disprove it by the word that confirms it abundantly and therefore he shakes it off with a conjecture only pray see of what authority the Scripture is with these kind of men â—or â—y â— Church patterne in the Gospel P. 23. We do that never Apostle did doe Dr. Was not Peter bound by the charge that was given him to feed both Lambs and Sheep as well the young as the old by giving them their meat and ruling them Resp 1. As Apostle he had this charge but this warrants not us in our practise being ordâ—â—â—â—â— ministers by a ordinary call 2. The Apostles had â—uthority for all that from them authority may be communicated to others in an ordinary way 3. Ordinarily and so I intend no Apostle did the whole ministery what meanes the mentioning of their co-workers so oft else and that of Acts 10.48 Dr. I say that every one that is called to the Ministry is bound to do all that God doth inable him to doe both to Teach and to Rule as the occasions do require his service Resp 1. You have Mr Doctor a dixi for it if
is the main work and the principâ—ll And this is all that the Apostle in the place doth intend and not to distinguish preaching and baptizing so as if they did belong to severall offices and administrations You do in this as in most of your other allegations rack the Scriptures and make it speak that which it never meant Resp 1. Mr Doctor At the close ends still with some Monstrum hor rendum intending that when this prog in the dark was carried up and down the Reader wherever he opened the Book and perused his notes should apprehend that and all the rest to be abominable stuffe without more looking after it as some of late formerly my Friends told some of my Congregation that the Mininisters made but a mock of my Books chiefly occasioned doubtlesse through the Doctors silly notes and notions 2. Whereas you say to baptize was not the main work for which the Apostles were sent nor for which ministers are appoynted I know none denies it But Mr Doctor the Question is where it were to be done or not 2. Where it were to be done but by ministers ordinarily that were sent or called to do it or not 3. The Apostle saith he was not sent to do that 1 Cor 1.17 that is ordinarily and then where others were not sent thereto the Apostle baptized few 1 Cor 1.14 16 and yet in Corinth Act 18.8 many hearing believed and were baptized Your Countryman Rutherford a man of judgment saith in his Treatise of Church-Government some other hence in Corinth did baptize beside Paul and can you think he did it in the same Church with him without Commission And did not this Commission he had in some kind give the Apostle cause to say being in ordinary Church-fellowship with the other he was not sent to Baptize but Evangelize and cals him co-worker with him working in the same Church Paul taught in prove the contrary if you can 4. I distinguish not teaching from baptizing but the Teachers by their administrations the Teacher teacheth as well as the Evangelist though not the same doctrine nor to the same people 5. The Apostle not I distinguisheth Evangelizing from Baptizing Baptism being a peculiar act of the Teachers ministry and in a especiall kind distinguishing him 6. If this were so common to all why did not Peter baptize the first Gentiles men that received the holy spirit but comand others to do it Aâ— 10.48 P. 28. In saying he was not the Apostle implyeth some are sent to baptize Dr. Do you think that any are sent to baptize and not to preach Mr Doctor have you my Book to read and do you ask that question Or did you send to Mr Ellis to answer you for me Do you find any such thing in all my Book Is not the contrary set down in many places Sir it seems you would beg me say so because you cannot make my Book do it Are things at this ebb with you Mr Doctor Dr. If the purpose of sending is primarily to preach and secondarily to baptize then the Apostle saith right that his commission was rather to intend the preaching work then the Baptizing of Disciples Resp 1. Mr Doctor What if this be not the purpose what then doth the Apostle say wrong it's 〈◊〉 no wrong to me if you say so of my writings if you are so saucy to say so of the Apostles but Mr Doctor we know your mind which is this That if the Apostles or any else say otherwaies then you would have them say they say wrong but when they say as you would have them say then they say right yea right or wrong 2. It was primarily to preach but it was to men without the Church before Baptism and secondarily baptize and yet Mr Doctor the Apostle is wrong in your sense 1. Here he speaks of Baptizing first as the first and Evangelizing after 2. This was to a Church constituted even Corinth and tended to perfect them after the Church admission in the faith of the Gospel being baptized already Dr. In your paragraph foregoing you say that baptizing was and the Doctrine of Bâ—ptism the Doctors work as appears Heb. 6.1 and why not the Pastors and the Evangelists or the Apostles do all that either of these do Resp Mr Doctor Your why not hath no cause in it why they yea or the Apostles themselves should do it ordinarily yet for these causes not 1. Because God for edification and order ordered it otherwaies 2. By a Gospel law God hath committed to each one his dispensation in his proper place Sir if a man had asked Moses why may not the Levites do that the Priests do the Priests do that the high Priests do would he not have said it was otherwaies in your pattern God will not have it so and what else could he have said for who hath been his Counsellour Dr. Heb 6 1. The fundamentals of the Doctrine of Christ are reckoned up and hath the Evangelist nothing to do with them to publish them I wonder at this weaknesse and at the whole sequel of this discourâ—e Resp Mr Doctor The Evangelist hath to do with them as a beleiver but to teach these to the society of strong men in Christ he hath not I do not know where you will say the Apostle saith right or wrong in saying so as you did before but so he saith Heb 6.1 Leaving therfore the word or Doctrine of the beginning of Christ let us be carried on unto perfection and after _____ Mr Doctor what is here meant by this not again laying the foundation if not that they were not to be taught again to perfect men by the Evangelists as they before had been by the Teacher to his babes P. 29. Nicodemus John 3.12 Dr. What although Christ doth speak of earthly and heavenly things in respect of the maâ—ter doth it therfore follow that he who teacheth the one may not meddle with the other These consequences are so senslesse that a man doth not know what to say of them Resp Mr Doctor See Joh. 3.3 1. There is mention of a man one that is in the condition of all mankind before regeneration meerly naturall 2. Regeneration is required of him as the means 3. Before this he cannot see the Kingdom of God in himself or in Church communion as the end for these are aimed at as â—n vers 5. is set out by water for the visible Kingdom or administrations of that Kingdom and then the Holy Ghost for the inward 1 In the former estate he is of the earth earthly as the first Adam was 1 Cor. 15.47 to whom Christ sheweth what that estate is and what is required to come out of it 2. In the Kingdom estate are Heavenly things ministred which Christ doth not minister to them not born again and shews why not because if they could not believe that Doctrine or teaching did so mediatly concern their state and condition how should they believe that concerned the