ridiculous offering and were anciently given as an amends and satisfaction to God but they went to the Priest to purge the guilt of the deceased which he contracted by his non-payment of Tythes whilest he was living and ought as well as other Offerings be laid aside according to that Thou shalt not bring the hire of a Whore nor the price of a dog into the house of the Lord c. And what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols Deut. 23. 18. Pr. But now I pray you according to your judgement what must become of all our Churches It seems by your argument if one may believe you they must all be plucked down as the Brownists teach what say you to that Ph. Touching the name CHURCH in your sense I do not greatly like it for it properly signifieth a Companie and is used for the companie of the faithful yet for the present I shall admit the word by a Metonymie to signifie the place of their meeting And I do not conceive there is any necessitie to pluck these Churches or meeting places down I confess I put no holiness in them and think the Congregation may as well meet in any other convenient place and that there is neither Legal nor Evangelical holiness in them And that plucking down all the Popish and superstitious and Monuments of Idolatrie I do not mean the Arms of men of renown and placing a faithfull Ministerie there is a sufficient purging of these places to make them fit for the people of God to meet in for partaking of the holy Ordinances of God Pr. Why say you so These Churches were founded by Papists and have been used to Idolatrie And therefore you may as well allow of the things you speak against even now as these Churches I think both ought to be allowed indifferently Ph. I hold there is great difference First for those I spake of formerly we are sure they were the inventions of the Man of sin and its possible to shew when and how they were brought into the Church of Rome But these Churches at least manie of them are more ancient then Poperie or Antichrist for it s not possible that Antichrist could come untill the Roman Empire was broken and removed which was at least four hundred years after Christ Before which Christianitie was plentifully spread in England and many Churches and Congregations planted for the true worship of God 2. Thes. 7 8. Reve. 13. 2. Antiquitie with full consent agree that Christianitie was here planted in or neer the Apostles daies and that upon occasion of the Persecution that rose about Stephen Acts 11. 19. divers of the Apostles and Disciples came into England amongst whom the Ancients reckon Peter Paul Joseph of Aramathea and Symon Zelotes And that some Brittaines both men and women were famous Christians and some suffered Martyrdom here in the first ten Persecutions Fox Act. Mon. vo p. 147. 148 Speeds Chron pa. 〈◊〉 Arch-Bishops we cannot conceive but that the pietie and devotion of those times when they had a Christian King Lucius An. 180. pr. Christ and Christianitie countenanced and priviledged by divers of the Emperors especially Constantine and Theodosius would stir up the Christians to build them meeting places Besides about the year six hundred when Augustin the Monck falsly called the English Apostle came into England sent by Pope Gregorie the Great who had not taken upon him the Title of universal Bishop he found the reliques of manie Churches and Congregations of Christians planted in England and Wales Fox Act. Mon. vo pa. 150. 151. And he disputed with the Monks of Bangor about Ceremonies by which it s conceived he brought not so much Religion with him 〈◊〉 he did superstition and Introductions to Popery for the Brittains had learned Religion from better Tutors It s true afterwards these meeting places were generally all polluted with Popish Idolatry all which with the Reliques thereof being swept out they are clean as before Pr. But what say you to this many of our Churches were Idols Temples Goodw Ant. Ro. ca. 20. de delubro Ph. The Parish Churches I conceive were built for the service of the true God the forms of them are unlike the Idol Temples But I confess some of the Cathedrall Churches were the Temples of Idols as of Jupiter Apollo Janus and Diana some of which are demolished and some were new built as Pauls at London by Ethelbert the King about 1060 years since At which time hee put out the Flammins and Arch-flammins and set up Arch-Bishops and Bishops These Churches were built and dedicated to Idols or rather Devils and false Gods and therefore ought to be demolished as I conceive according to that Law Ye shall destroy all the places where they served their Gods and break down their Altars c. Deut. 12. 2 3 c. Pr. Well I hope shortly to see the Church-government setled with the Classes and Synods and that thereby all things will be well reformed for the Appeals will regulate every thing which is irregularly done and many will see more then a few Ph. I should be glad to see a through Reformation but I do much feare these Prudentiall things the Classes Synods and Appeals to them will prove but imprudentiall and Physicians of no value And I doubt not but those who put the Parliament upon them have their own ends and aims in them Pr. Why say you so the Church of Antioch did appeal to the Councell at Jerusalem in a case of Conscience Acts 15. and why may not we do the like Pr. I deny that there was any such Appeale as you mean its true the Church of Antioch in a case of conscience did voluntarily send Paul and Barnabas and other brethren to Jerusalem to advise with the Apostles Elders and Church there about that matter And accordingly they received the sentence and judgement of the whole Church as well Brethren as Apostles and Elders which Apostles had extraordinary gifts of knowledge and revelation and what they directed them was in stead of the written Word We have no persons so gifted in these daies but must have recourse to the Law and the Testimonies the written Word of God Pr. But do you not think that these Classes and Appeals will be of excellent use for cropping and curbing of Errors Heresies and Sectaries and keeping the Church free from pollution Ph. I am unwilling to tell you what I think of Presbyterial Gouernment I le say nothing of it but take thus much mark the end and observe it These things the Classes Synods and Appeals can never profit the Church of Christ The Appeals are in effect the same wee had before from the Arch-Deacon to the Consistory of the Bishop from thence to the Arches then to the Audience and then to the Delegates so from the Congregation Presbyterie to the Classes from the Classes to the Provinciall Synod then to the Nationall Here is work for the Civill Lawyers to wyer-draw
novice or ignorant fellow having been two or three years or it may be less at the Universitie and put him up into the Pulpit not doubting of his calling to the Ministry And all these in order to the service of these mens pride and covetousness Pr. I perceive you finde fault almost with every thing although never so ancient and inoffensive What can you say against Mariage why it should not be accounted to belong to the Ministry having been so long used in the Church Ph. I answer that Marriage is a civill action and belongs to the Magistrate to see it orderly done and so was used under the Law and is so used at New-England and in other reformed Churches at this day Ruth 4. 9. Lechfield newes c. pag. 39. It s true that in corruption of time when Antichrist prevailed above the civill power it was brought into the Church that the Priest might have an oare in every boat and no man marry but whom they permitted And by this meanes it was looked to that the Priests might not marry and those persons who did marry must have the Parish Priests Certificate or Licence least any grist should go by their mill Pr. This may be true and yet the thing not unlawfull for the Minister in the face of the Congregation to joyne the marryed couple and to give them some good exhortation fit for such a Solemnitie Ph. Why may not as much be done by a godly Magistrate being a civill action and common to all Nations But that is not all after the Marriage was annexed to the Ministeriall function the Church of Rome soone made it a Sacrament and the Ring must needs be added as the outward signe of love the invisible grace that as the Ring is endlesse the marryed couples love should be endlesse A worthie Sacrament and without doubt fit to be retained in the Church for the benefit of the Clergie both in respect of honor and profit the two maine things of all their designes Pr. But I pray you why may not burying the dead be a fit action for the Minister and a funerall Sermon requisite for them which are living Ph. For burying the dead It s also a civill work of Charitie for Christians to accompanie the corp's of their dead friends to the grave and to lay them there without more adoe and the dead also may burie their dead And what the Minister hath there to do more then another man I know not Pr. It s fit he should give some exbortation to the people and if he preach a Funerall Sermon it s done for the edification of the living and not for the dead and preaching is good in season and out of season Ph. I confess the word ought to be preached in season and out of season but some times and places are so unseasonable as no christian prudence will admit it convenient to preach as the times now are for a man to preach in Westminster-hall when Judges are sitting though Paul preached upon Mars-hill the Judges Court at Athens or to preach a Sermon in a common hall when a companie are at dinner where no man regards these times and places are too unseasonable there being convenient times and places for such religious actions And for your exhortation or funeral Sermon they are more inconvenient and unseasonable then at anie other time and place being more abused and the very original being naught 1. First we read of no such thing in the Scripture onely we finde godly men used to accompanie others to the grave and sometimes made lamentation for them 2. Secondly these funeral Sermons or rather Orations were first used by the Heathen and then taken up by the Church of Rome who used at these Solemnities to praise the dead 3. Thirdly thence the Church of Rome came to pray for the dead and to this day defend it stifly And therefore as a learned man once said in a Sermon in my hearing we have left praying for the dead for the evill of it we may as well leave off praysing the dead by reason of the abuse of it 4. Fourthly now besides this the corruption of the times are such that the gift for the funerall Sermons so blindeth the eyes of the Ministers that generally they alwaies finde out one thing or other to commend the dead for although most prodigiously wicked as what man in his sickness or at some other time will not do or say some good for which the Minister presently in conceipt placeth the dead partie in Paradise to the woful hardning of the wicked many of their auditors in a course of sin when they hear as bad as themselves absolved by the Minister as a Saint departed and a faithfull brother according to the blinde charitie of our Service-Book And were it not that some profit comes to the Clergie by these funeral Orations they would as easily be laid aside as their prayer and exhortation at the grave for which they had nothing given unto them Pr. You seemed before to take exception to the Baptisme of Infants and truly you reason like an Independent who are for the most part Anabaptists Ph. I do not disallow of the Baptism of some Infants whom I conceive to have right to Baptism but I do not allow of the Baptism of all children indifferently nor of all such children whose Parents profess Christianitie Pr. The ancient Fathers testifie the Baptism of Infants in the Church to be an Apostolicall Institution and to have been used from the Apostles times when whole housholds were baptized and no exception of children And there are many reasons and unanswerable arguments grounded upon Scripture both in the old and New Testament to warrant it And the verie Text it self is clear Acts 2. 39. The promise is made to you and to your children c. And if the promise be made to them children they then have right to the signe or seal of the promise Ph. Touching what you alledg from the Fathers I confess I have not all those books in my custodie which I finde cited for this purpose but I have searched divers of them and if you please to examine them they make nothing for you All agree in this that Infants were baptized in the Primitive Church and Augustine affirmes it to be an Apostolicall Tradition August contr. Donat. l. 4. ca. 23. 24. Lib. 10. de gen. ad liter ca. 23. Ciril in levi l. 4 But this doth not prove that the children of Heathens nor of all such who professed christianitie were baptized how wicked and lewd soever their parents were or whither of the Church or excommunicate And such as hold all ought to be baptized hold that children dying without Baptisme cannot be saved Cipri Epiâ— ad fidum 137. And for your Arguments from Scripture you can thence conclude nothing But that the Infants of believers have been and may be baptized And if you observe where you finde whole Families baptized as the Jailor Acts
are without you have nothing to do with them The censures of the Church are Gods Ordinance for that end and are most effectual But for that compulsive power you speak of it savours of the Tyrannie of Antichrist and so doth your title of Ecclesiastical Magistrate which title I have not heard used by anie Orthodox Minister since the Lord Bishops those Popish Ecclesiastical Magistrates were cashiered who were indeed neither Magistrates nor Ministers but like the Pope between both Pr. I confess the Elders formerly chosen some years since in my Parish have refused to act to my great grief But now lately I my self and the Church-wardens have nominated others and the Parish have assented to the choice and although the persons chosen will not take upon them the Office of the Eldership yet they have assented to joyne with me in debarring the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table which is a chief point of Reformation and I rejoice much in it Ph. How did you prevail to bring the business so far Pr. I had found some difficultie in it but that at last I gave the honest partie who best liked our proceedings good satisfaction and so the choice was verie free and unanimous none opposing Ph. How was that possible seeing all the people within your Parish liked not of your proceeding how came it to pass that none declared against it Pr. I do confess some few there are in my Parish whom I knew to be of contrarie judgement and some stick not to say our proceedings are Antichristian and have no foundation in the word of God but I took a course to have all such absent when the matter was debated and at the choice of those Assistants Ph. What course did you take I desire to know for I have heard you censured for that business Pr. First I conferred with the wealthiest best and most leading men in my Parish before I came to the choice some in private and some in companie with others at several meetings and gave them satisfaction and these I knew would draw the most of the common sort And for the rest whom I knew I could not convince I warned them publickly in the Church to absent themselves and by message privately I desired such as I thought would oppose to forbear to hinder us in that business And by this means and by telling the men who were to be chosen that they should only assist mee in keeping the scandalous and ignorant from the Communion and do nothing els they assented and I hope whll cheerfully joyne with me in that work Ph. Now do you think this is a sufficient Reformation Pr. It is a principal part thereof we must wait untill we can bring on the rest Ph. It seems there your pretended Elders are no Elders but assistant I am sorrie you have shewed your self so bold as to set up a new Office in your pretended Parish Church shew me where ever anie man pretending to be a Minister of Christ by himself or with two three or four more usurped that power over a thousand persons as you and your new fashion Elders if they be rul'd by you intend to do I confess in the Popish Congregations and lately here in England the same was practised The Bishop or his Chancellour with a Presbyter or Minister did excommunicate or debar from the Sacrament but in worst times no man could be suspended without a Presbyter joyning in that act And the Church-Wardens which are yet in request were assistants to the Priest as your new fashion Elders are and both alike keep Christ out of his Kingdom and so most suitable to your Parish Churches which are not fit for lawfull Elders no more then they are capeable of lawful Ministers Pr. I have erected no new Office but the same which the Scripture holds forth only their power is limited by mutual assent of them and the Minister And for the exercise of that power in keeping the scandalous and profane from the Sacrament it is included within and is part of their Office Mat. 18. 17. where the Church signifieth the Ministers and Elders who are the representative Church for the rest it s answered before Ph. That question concerning the Church I will not enter into but leave it to the learned who have sufficiently discussed it But for my part I am confident no such construction can be made of that place for the Church alwaies signifieth the whole bodie Ministers and people or the members distinct from the Officers Pr. This question being one of the principles upon which all the Controversies between us and the Independents are founded I shall wholly wave you you have heard my opinion in publick to which I adhere and shall do untill I see better cause to alter my judgement Ph. Let that pass but what was the reason why you carried the business of chusing your pretended Elders so clandestinely and with such policie without hearing other mens opinions who were of contrarie judgment Pr. To tell you the truth I feared opposition and that the work may be hindered and therefore I desired to avoid all occasions and to carrie on the work as smoothly as I could and I am glad of it Ph. It s a sign you think your mettal is naught because you fear the Touch-stone The truth seeks no corners but in light shines more clearly Pr. The truth may have opposition and yet is the same still We fear not the touchstone but the sleights of men who most oppose those things which are best Ph. It seems now you have your desire what proceedings have you made towards Reformation do your pretended Elders act according to your minde do you think they perform their dutie Pr. Yea truly I have much comfort in them and doubt not but we shall separate the precious from the vile and yesterday we made a verie hopeful beginning insomuch as they undertooke to do in joyning with me to keep the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table Ph. What course did you take to make that separation Pr. The Elders refer it to me to examine all those who were to communicate the week before they came to the Sacrament and accordingly I published my intention not to admit anie who did not come to the Church at the time appointed to be examined And manie of my Parish came and submitted themselves to be examined accordingly Ph. Your pretended Elders are verie confident it seems they see with your eyes and hear with your ears But I pray you what did you finde by examining those who came to you and concerning what did you examine them Pr. I questioned those whom I suspected to be ignorant about the grounds of Religion and touching the nature of the Sacraments and and for others whom I feared not I did not examine them at all although some of those came to me and others sent in their names and I entred them all in a Book as well such as appeared as those who sent