places in the scripture whereof I will recite two or three In the fifthe Chapter of Iosua it is sayde that Iosua made him sharpe kniues for the circumcising of the children of Israell and a little after that Iosua circumcised them Shall we now vppon these wordes conclude that Iosua dyd make the kniues himselfe or was a cutler or being made to hys hande dyd whet them and sharpen them or shall we say that he dyd circumcise the children of Israell in his owne person and hym selfe alone when as that was done by many and by the Leuites to whome that offyce appertayned no but the scripture declareth that Iosua procured sharpe kniues to be made and exhorted and commaunded the people to be circumcised In Exodus it is sayde that Moses dyd appoynt vnto the people Princes Captayne 's ouer thousandes and hundrethes c. And if any conclude thereuppon that hee dyd it him selfe alone hee is by and by confuted by that whiche is wrytten in Deuteronomie where it appeareth that the people dyd chuse them and presented them to Moises What is it then that is sayde in Exodus that Moises appoynted them but that Moyses assembled the people and exhorted them to appoynt rulers and tolde them what manner of men they should be and in a worde sate as it were moderatour in that election To come to the newe Testament In the Actes it is sayde that Paule and Timothe delyuered vnto the churches the orders and decrees of the Apostles and elders and yet it appeareth in another place that the Church had also to doe and gaue their consent vnto the making of those decrees so that the former place meaneth that the Apostles and Elders dyd goe before and were the cheefe and directors of that action The same manner of speach is vsed of the Romane stories wherein it is sayd that the Consull dyd make Magistrates for because that he gathered the assembly and voyces whereby they were made and so S. Luke sayth heere that Paul and Barnabas ordayned because they being the moderators of the Election caused it to be made assembled the churches tolde them of the necessitie of hauing good pastors and gouernors gathered the voices tooke heede that nothing should be done lightly nothing tumultuously or out of order And so to conclude it is an euill reason to say as M. Doctor doth that because S. Luke hath that Paule and Barnabas ordayned therefore the people were excluded And I maruell with what conscience he coulde answere so in thys place especially where it is forthwith added that they ordayned them by the suffrages and voices of the church But you say that the Greeke worde cheirotonein is by the common opinion of almost all Ecclesiasticall writers vsed in the scripture for the solemne maner of ordaining of ministers by the imposition of hands which is the second exception you take to this reason Wherin but that I haue promised to holde my selfe to the matter and that these bolde asseuerances in matters most vntrue are so common that if I should euery fote pursue them I should weary my selfe and all others I coulde not keepe my selfe from running out to maruell at such high speaches voide of truthe First where you say that some translation hath that they ordained ministers wythout making mention of election what haue you gained therby when I can shew mo that translate it otherwise and say it is that they ordained by election or voices or suffrages I had not the commoditye of bookes wherby I coulde see the iudgement of all Ecclesiasticall wryters But of those whych I had I finde that there was but one only M. Gualter of that minde and yet he dothe not shut out the peoples consent in the election Master Caluin M. Beza M. Bullinger M. Musculus M. Brentius he that translated Chrysostome vppon that place Erasmus in his Paraphrases vpon that place are of the contrary iudgement of whose iudgement I would not haue spoken if you woulde not haue gone about thus to abuse youre reader wyth suche manifest vntruthes to ouerthrow the order which God hath established But let all authorities of men go and let vs examine the thing in it self If so be that the holy ghust had ment the solemne putting on of the handes vpon the heades of him that was created elder and minister had he not words enough to vtter this hys meaning would he haue for laying on of hands vsed a word that signifieth lifting vp of hands would he haue vsed a word signifying holding vp for laying downe for when the hands are layd of the head of an other they are layd downe and not holden vp There are words in the olde Testament and in the newe before S. Luke wrote and after he wrote to expres thys ceremony of laying on of hands and yet none haue euer expressed thys S. Paule speaketh thrise of it in his Epistles to Timothe and alwayes he vseth epithesis ton cheiron In the old Testament where thys ceremonie is vsed and spoken of the Septuaginta did neuer translate cheirotonein But as the wryters of the newe Testament epithesis cheiron And what should I stande in thys when as S. Luke him selfe bothe before and after speaking of that ceremony of laying on of hands doth neuer vse this word cheirotonein but the same word whych s Paule vseth and the Septuaginta and although the holy ghost speake properly and wel by whomsoeuer he speaketh yet it could haue ben worst of all sayd by S. Luke of all the Canonicall wryters that he should speake thus vnproperly who of them all wryteth moste purely and elegantly according to the phrase of the moste eloquent Grecians and therfore he borowed this speache of the auncient Greeke wryters whych did vse to expres their elections by thys worde because they were made and voyces geuen by thys Ceremonie of lifting vp of handes But what if S. Luke haue vsed thys worde before and in thys booke in the signification of chusing by voyce dare you then say that he vseth it heere for putting on of hands In the Actes S. Peter sayeth that Christ after hys resurrection appeared not vnto the whole people but vnto those whom he had before chosen by his voyce to be hys witnesses he vseth thys word procecheirotonemenous Nowe if you will say heere that it is to be turned those of whome he layd his handes I will aske you where you read that euer he layd his handes of their heads I will shewe you where he did by hys heauenly voyce appoynt thē And I thinke you are not able to shew in any Greeke author auncient which men do take to be autenticall to teache the propertie or eloquence of the Greeke tongue I meane which were before S. Luke his time where the worde cheirotonein is taken for the laying on of hands of the head of any Thys I confesse that the Greeke Ecclesiasticall wryters haue sometimes vsed it so but you
and that to be vnderstanded of our ministers which was of theirs or of our faultes which was of theirs Thys is not the way to Anabaptisme but to all heresies and schismes that euer haue bene or shall be For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture as you begin you will leaue vs nothing in the ende wherewith we may eyther defend our selues agaynst heretikes or be able to strike at them Whereas you say there is a great difference betweene the seueritie of the law and lenitie of the gospell me thinkes I smell a spice of the error of the Maniches which were also schollers in that behalfe of the olde hereticke Cerdon that there is a good and an euill a gentle and a seuere God one vnder the law and an other vnder the gospell For to saye that God was then a seuere punysher of sinne and that now he is not at so great hatred wyth it but that he will haue it gentlyer and softlyer dealt with is euen all one in effect with that which supposeth two Goddes I will ioyne with you in it that the transgressyons of the law in the tyme of the gospell oughte rather to be seuerelyer punyshed then they were vnder the law for as muche as the knowledge is greater and the aboundance of the spirite of God whereby the lawes are kept is more plentifull then vnder the lawe At this tyme I will content me with the place of Zach. which prophesying of the kingdome of Christe and of the tyme of the gospell sayth that then the father and mother of the false Prophet shall cause theyr owne sonne to bee put to deathe It is as absurde which is brought to proue that the papistes whiche worshippe God falsly doe not faulte so haynously as the Israelites dyd which worshipped the Idolles As who shoulde saye the Iewes or any other the grossest idolaters that euer were dyd euer take those thinges which they worshipped Serpentes Oxen Fire Water c. to be God or knew not the Images before which they fell downe were Woode or Stone Siluer and Gold. And who knoweth not that they thought that they worshipped by them and in them the God which made heauen earth The Iewes when they molted a golden calfe and fell downe before it did neuer thinke that to be God * but sayde that they wold kepe holy day to the Lord Iehouah Wherein I will put you ouer to the learned treatises of the godly new wryters which do refute this distinction being brought of the papistes as a shift to proue that the Idolatrie which is forbidden in the olde Testament toucheth not them because they worship God by these things and the idolatrous Iewes and infidels worshipped nothing else nor loked at nothing else thē the bare things before which they fell down Which selfe same distinction you bring to proue that papistrie is not so detestable as the idolatrie of the Iewes It may be that certayne of the Gentiles worshipped by their images Iupiter and Iuno c. but you can not shew that the Israelites euer worshipped any other God then the true God so that their fault was only in that they worshipped him otherwise then he had appoynted And the Gentiles that worshipped many Gods worshipped one as the head and cheefe and the rest as small companions and as they termed them minorum gentium deos as the papistes doe God as the cheefe and the sainctes as other petie gods And here all men may see what a good proctor you be for the papistes bothe in lestning their faultes and abating their punishments and yet will not I saye that you are conspired with them or haue receiued your see of them But if you can shew where or in what one poynt those that you charge with confederacie haue layde so softe pillowes vnder their heades as these are they refuse not to be called confederate and conspired with the papistes To the next section in the. 40. page WHat should become of the people in the meane season whilest they learne their Catechisme and when they haue learned it they are no more fitte to be Ministers and to teach other then he that hath learned his Accidence is meete to set vp a schole And it can not be defended but it was a grosse ouer sight to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme It were much to compel them to read it And if a man would haue declamed agaynst the ignoraunce of the most part of the ministers three whole dayes together he could not haue sayde more against them then that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion How know you that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision being also placed there But how followeth this it is meete that ministers shoulde learne euerye day therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Cathechismes it is meete they shoulde reade Cathechismes therefore meete to learne them and be enioyned to learne them is there nothing worthyer the learning and profession of the minister then to learne Cathechismes or dothe a manne learne those thinges alwayes which he readeth dothe he not reade thinges some tyme to record the things that he hath learned For because they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Cathechisme you conclude of their wordes that they would not haue a minister to learne or to reade any thing which is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther as you are from the reasonable and vpright expounding of them To the two next sections in the. 41. and. 42. page IT hath bene likewise shewed what was in that election extraordinarie and what pertayneth to the ordinarie callings And in the .vj. of the Actes it was shewed that if the Deacons shoulde not be thrust vppon the congregation agaynst the will of it muche lesse ought the minister And if that congregation had by the commaundement of the Apostles an interest in the choyse of their gouernoures I see not why the same commaundement remayneth not to be followed of other churches Your reasons wherewith you would make difference shal be after considered The Answere to the next section being the 43. page and vntill I adde which is in the 44. page VNto these places of the first and sixthe of the Actes is added first the place of the fourtenth of the Actes where the authors of the admonition do proue that the election ought not to be in one man hys hand but ought to be made by the churche agaynst which M. Doctor taketh three exceptions The first is for that it is sayde that Paule and Barnabas ordayned Elders whereby he would conclude that the congregations had nothing to doe But how siender a reason that is it may be considered of infinite
controuersy left in this poynt what is a flocke S. Paule defineth it plainly when he sayeth appoynte pastors or elders or byshops for these woordes are indifferently vsed through not euery shire or prouince or realme but through euery city or town And least that any man should here take occasion to conclude that then it is lawfull for one manne to be bishoppe or pastor of a whole Citie suche as London or Yorke c. S. Luke in the Actes dothe declare the meaning of this place where he sayth that they appoynted elders throughoute euery congregation so that if the citie or towne be great and the professors of the gospell in it be more then wil make conueniently a congregation then there muste be by the rule of God more pastors and byshops Whervpon it appeareth that bothe no pastor or byshoppe ought to be made without there be a flocke as it were a voyde place for him and that a flocke is not a realme or prouince or dioces as we now call a dioces but so many as may conueniently meete in one assembly or congregation And that thys is the meaning of S. Paule it appeareth by the practise of the Churches from time to time whych haue both decreed against and found fault wyth these wandering and rouing ministeries The great councell of * Calcedon decreed that no elder or deacon or anye other in the ecclesiasticall order shoulde be ordained apolelymenos that is losely and as it were let goe at randone whether he him selfe listeth whych he also interpreateth by and by more plainly when he addeth that he should not be ordained Eime idicos en ecclesia poleos e comes that is vnies it be specially in a congregation of some citie or towne And in the councell of Vrban as Gratian reporteth distinction 70. it was decreed that the ordination that was made without any title should be void and what that meaneth is shewed by and by when it is sayd in what church any is intitled there let hym alwayes remaine And thys is also S. Ierome hys complainte in that men were ordained vnto the ministerie when they were chosen by no churche and so went rounde aboute hauing no certaine place And therefore thys that none ought to preache onles he haue some pastoral charge ought not to haue ben so strange a thing vnto you as you make it if eyther the scriptures or the councels or the ancient fathers had bene so well knowen vnto you as eyther your name requireth or you take vpon you whych dare so boldly pronoūce that there can be shewed no text of scripture for the matter But you aske what place Paule Barnabas had apoynted them What meane you therby to conclude that because Paul Barnabas the apostles had no place appoynted them therfore a pastor or bishop shuld not when this is one difference betwene the apostle and bishop that the one hath no certaine place appoynted and the other hath But I thinke I smel out your meaning which is that we may make apostles also at these dayes and that that function is not yet ceased for otherwise your reason is nothing worthe Likewise also you aske of Phillip whych was an euangelist And so you thinke y these running ministers are lawfull because they are Apostles and Euangelists against whych I shall haue occasion to speake shortly after in the. 50. page But if a man be able to liue of himselfe and minde not to be burdensome to the church it seemeth vnreasonable vnto you that he may not go about and preach throughout all churches Did you neuer read any learned disputations and that of learned wryters in our dayes about this question whether although it be lawful it be expedient that a man being able and willing to liue of himselfe ought to take wages of the church for inconueniences whych might ensue of taking nothing I do but aske you the question because you make so great a wonder at this for I wil not take vpon me heere the defence of it because I will not multiply questions And whye I may you maye not that man that is so able and will be content to liue of him selfe why I say may not he teache and be the pastor of some churche Doe you thincke that for his forbearing the wages of the Churche he may breake the lawes and orders that God hath established for the rest contained in those pages touching the ordaining of ministers or byshops I haue before spoken at large To the. 49. page OEcumenius and Chrysostome saye that by Elders he meaneth Bishops not thereby to seuer those that had the gouernement of the churche togither wyth the pastor minister of the word which were called ancients as you seeme to meane but to put distinction betweene those whych are elders by age elders by office besides y it is before alleaged y it may be y the pastor or byshop did in the name of all the elders lay on his hands vpon hym that was ordained And lastly you know and can not denye that s Paule in one or two places confoundeth the Bishop and the Elder To say that the byshop may as wel say receiue the holy ghost as to say the words vsed in the supper or to say y the sinnes of those whych to beleue are forgiuen is dis dia pason as farre as Yorke London For there are commaundements to the ministers to do that which they do and heere is none and there the minister doth not commaund that the breaue be the body of Christ but he sayth that it is Neither dothe he commaund y sinnes should be forgiuen but pronounceth in the behalfe of God that they are forgeuē It is not vnlawfull also that he with the congregation should make a prayer for the assistance or encrease of God his gifts vpon him that is ordained but to commaund that he should receiue it is meerely vnlawfull For these words receiue the holy ghost are the imperatiue moode and do expresly signifie a commaundement And so the bishop may as well say to the sea when it rageth and swelleth peace be quiet as to say receiue the holy ghost And if you thinke it so good reason to vse this in the making of ministers because you vse the wordes of our sauior Christ why may not you as wel blow vpon them as he did for seeing that our sauior Christ confirmed his word there with a sacrament or outward signe and you thinke you must therfore do it because he did it you are muche to blame to leaue out the outward signe or sacrament of breath whereby the faith of hym whych is ordained might be the more assured of such gifts and graces as are requisite in his function I heape not vp heere the iudgement of the wryters you knowe I thinke it myght casely be done if I liked to follow that way Answere to the. 50. and. 51. pages THys passeth all the diuinitie that euer I
hell so to vpholde the archbishop the necke of it whereupon that Romishe monster standeth are raised vp from hell bastardes Clemens and Anacletus and in deede as it may appeare the very naturall sonnes of Sathan and the sworne souldiers of Antichrist A man would haue thought that the bishop of Salisburie master Iuell had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement that all good men would haue had him in detestation so farre of would they haue bene to haue alledged out of him to proue any thing that is in controuersie The bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Ierome to proue that none of those workes which goe in his name are his And although the proufes bee strong which the bishop vseth being the witnes of vnsuspected witnesses yet because the law although it allow two witnesses notwithstanding doth like better of three I will set downe heere also Ireneus which was a great while before them both and followed hard after the times of the true and vncounterfaite Clement and therefore could best tell of him and of hys writings yet * he maketh mention but of one Epistle which vpon occasion amongst the Corinthians he wrote to them In deede in another place of that booke he sheweth that it is very probable that Clement also eyther wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrewes Now if that Epistle to the Corinthes were extante we shoulde easely set by comparing those that are now in hys name with that what a my shapen thing this is And if so be that Ireneus coniecture be good that Clement was the author or interpreter of the Epistle to the Hebrues then what horrible iniurie is done to the holy ghost whyle the same is supposed the wryter of thys booke to the Hebrewes which is the author of suche beggery as thys Clement brought into the worlde And I pray you doe you holde that it is the true christyan relygion whyche that booke contayneth Coulde none of these consyderations driue you from the testimonie of thys Clement it goeth very harde wyth the archbyshop when these Clementes and Anacletusses must be brought to vnderproppe hym But what if there be no such booke as thys is which you name when you say in hys booke intituled compendiariuÌ„ religionis christianae it is like you know not him nor what he sayth when you can not tell so much as his name Only because Polidore wryteth that Clement sayth this in a certayne short summary booke of christian relygion you haue set downe that he wryteth thus in a booke intituled compendiarium christianae religionis where there is no such title neyther in the councels where hys Epistles are neyther yet in all other hys works Thought you to disguise hym with thys new name of the booke that hee shoulde not be knowne â—or ment you to occupy your answerer in seeking of a booke which because he shoulde neuer fynde he should neuer answer The place which Polidore meaneth is in the first epistle which he wryteth vnto Iames the brother of the Lord which is as the rest are both rediculous in the manner of wryting in the matter oftner tymes wycked blasphemous which I speake to thys ende that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath geuen to thys Clement in taking hym as one of hys wytnesses in so great a matter be not abused For answere vnto hym although he be not worth the answering I say that first it may be well sayde heere of the office of the Archbyshop that the father of it was an Amorite and mother a Hittite that is that it commeth of very infamous parentage the beginning therof being of the idolatrous nations And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were hys adopted sonne thereby to wipe away the shame of hys birth it doth S. Peter shamefull iniury For besides that it was farre from S. Peter to take thys authoritie to hym selfe not only of making archbyshops through out euery prouince but also instituting a new order or office without the councell of the rest of the apostles which none else of the apostles dyd and which is contrary to the practise of S. Peter both in the first and sixt of the Actes contrary also to the practises of the apostles which after shall appeare I say besides thys is it lyke that S Peter would grasse the noblest plant as it is sayde of the mynisterie of the gospell in such a rotten stocke of that which was most abhominable in all idolarrie for the greater they were in the seruice of the idolles the more detestable were they before God. The Lorde when he woulde geuelawes of worshipping vnto hys people in the things that were indifferent of shauing cutting and apparell wearing sayth to his people that they shoulde not doe so and so because the Gentiles dyd so yea euen in those things the vse whereof was otherwise very profitable and incommodious to forbeare he would haue theÌ„ notwithstanding to abstaine from as from swines flesh conneys c. to the end that hee might haue them seuered as appeareth in S. Paule by a great and high wall from other nations And therefore it is very vnlike that S. Peter would frame the ministerie of the gospell which is no ceremonie but of the substance of the gospell by the example of the heathenish and idolatrous functions If one had sayde that the Lord had shapen hys common wealth by the paterne of other common wealthes although it had bene most vntrue all other flourishing common wealthes of Athens Lacedemon Rome borowing their good lawes of the Lordes common wealth yet had it bene more tollerable but to say he framed the ministery of the gospell by the priesthode of idolatrie is to fetch chastitie out of Sodome and to seeke for heauen in hell And if so be that the Lord had delighted in thys hierarchie he would rather haue taken of hys owne then borowed of others of hys owne church then of the sinagogue of Sathan For vnder the law besides the Leuites there were priestes and aboue them a high priest And to say that Peter appoynted archbyshoppes and byshoppes by the example of the idolaters is after a sort to make the law to come out of Egypt or Babylon and not out of Sion or Ierusalem as the Prophet sayth You say after that Iames was an archbyshop if he were he was the first and placed ouer the Iewes And although S. Peter might to gaine the Gentiles he content to vse their idolatrous functions with a little chaunge of their names yet there is none so mad to thinke that he would translate any such function from the Gentiles vnto the Iewes whych were neuer before accustomed with any such Flamines or Archiflamines And thys I dare generally and at once say against you and your Clement that the Lord translated diuers things out of the Law into the Gospell as the Presbytery or
chuse an other conceyueth the prayer wherby the helpe of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt executed the residue of the things which pertayned vnto the whole action In the seconde of the actes all the Apostles are accused of drunkennesse Peter answeareth for thē all wypeth away the infamy they were charged with But you will say where are the voyces of the rest which did chuse Peter vnto thys First you must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstāce then surely you do Peter great iniury that aske whether he were chosen vnto it For is it to bee thought that Peter would thrust in hym selfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of hys fellowes and preuent hys fellowes of thys preheminence vndoubtedly if it hadde not beene done arrogantly yet it must needes haue a great shew of arrogancye if hee hadde done thys without the consent of hys fellowes And heere you shall heare what the Scholiast sayth which gathereth the iudgement of Greke diuines hora speaking of Peter panta meta koines auton gnomes poiounta Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hereupon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gate any archapostleship beside that the whole story of the actes of the apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same Scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing archikos imperiously nothing meta exousias with domynion or power Further I will admonishe him to take heede least if he striue so sore for the archbyshop he slide or euer he be aware into the tentes of the papistes which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the apostles And that it may bee vnderstanded that thys moderate rule voyde of all pompe and outward shew was not perpetuall nor alwayes tyed vnto one man which were the last poyntes of the cautions I put before turne vnto the 15. of the Actes where is shewed how with the rest of the church the apostles and amongst them Peter being assembled to decide a great controuersie Iames the Apostle and not Peter moderated and gouerned the whole action when as after other had sayd their iudgementes and namely Paule and Barnabas Peter he in the ende in the name of all pronounced the sentence and that whereof the rest agreed and had disputed vnto and the residue rested in that iudgement the which also may likewyse appeare in the 21. of the Actes This is hee which is called the byshop in euery church thys is he also whome Iustin wherof mention is made afterwardes calleth proestos And finally thys is that great archbishoppricke and great bishoppricke that M. Doctor so often stumbleth on This order and preheminence the Apostles time and those that were neare them kept and the nearer they came to the apostles times the nearer they kept them to this order and the farther of they were from those times vntill the discouering of the sonne of perdition the further of were they from thys moderation and nearer to that tyranny and ambitious power which oppressed and ouerlayde the churche of God. And therefore maister Caluin doth warely say that one amongst the apostles indefinitely not any one singular person as Peter had the moderation and rule of the other and further shadoweth out what rule that was by the example of the consul of Rome whose authoritie was to gather the senate together to tell of the matters which were to be handled to gather the voyces to pronounce the sentence And although the Antichrist of Rome had peruerted all good order and taken all libertie of the church into hys the Cardinalles Archbishops and Byshoppes handes yet there are some colde and lyght footinges of it in our synodes which are holden with the parliament where amongst all the mynisters which are assembled out of all the whole realme by the more part of voyces one to chosen which should goe before the rest propounde the causes gather the voyces and bee as it were the mouth of the whole company whome they terme the prolocutor Suche great force hath the truthe that in the vtter ruines of Popery it could neuer be so pulled vp by the rootes that a man coulde neuer know the place thereof no more or that it shoulde not leaue suche markes and printes behinde it whereby it myght afterwardes recouer it selfe and come agayne to the knowledge of men Now you see what authoritie we allow amongst the ministers both in their seuerall churches or in prouinciall sinodes or nationall or generall or what so euer other meetinges shall be aduised of for the profite and edifying of the church and withall you see that as we are farre from thys tyranny and excessiue power which now is in the church so we are by the grace of God as farre from confusion and disorder wherein you trauell so much to make vs to seeme giltie M. Doctor reasoneth agayne that Paule an Apostle and in the highest degree of ministerie was superior to Timothe and Titus Euangelistes and so in a lower degree of mynisterie therefore one mynister is superior to an other one byshop to an other byshop whych are all one office and one function As if I shuld say my Lord Mayor of London is aboue the sherifes therfore one sherife is superior to an other Again an other argumēt he hath of the same strēgth Titus being an Euangelist was superior to al the pastors in Crete which was a degree vnder the Euangelists therfore one pastor must be superior vnto an other pastor And that he was superior he proueth because he had authority to ordaine pastors so that the print of the archbyshop is so deepely set in his head that hereof he can imagine nothing but that Titus shuld be archbishop of all Crete I haue shewed before how these words are to be taken of S. Paule and for so much as M. Doctor burdeneth vs wyth the authority of Caluin so often I wil send him to Caluins owne interpretation vpon this place wher he sheweth the Titus did not ordaine by his owne authority for s. Paul wold not graunt Titus leaue to do that whych he him self wold not and sheweth that to say that Titus should make the election of pastors by him selfe is to giue vnto hym a princely authority and to take away the election from the church and the iudgement of the insufficiency of the minister from the company of the pastors whych were sayeth he to prophane the whole gouernment of the church I maruell therfore what M. doctor meaneth to be so busy wyth M. Caluin and to seke confirmation of his archbyshop and byshop at him whych wold haue shaken at the naming of the one and trembled at the office of the other onles it be because he would faine haue hys plaister where he receiued hys wound but I dare assure him
it were not that M. doctor in asking these questions dothe also answer them and answeareth them farre otherwyse then the truthe doeth suffer I would not be drawne from the causes whych we haue in hand by these roging questions nowe I can not leaue them vnansweared because I see that mayster Doctor dothe make of the holy Sacrament of baptisme whych is an entry into the house of God and whereby only the family of God must enter a common passage wherby he will haue cleane and vncleane holy and prophane as well those that are wythout the couenaunt as those that be wythin it to passe by and so maketh the church no housholde but an Iune to receyue whosoeuer commeth I will answere therfore almost in as many words as the questions be asked If one of the parents be neyther drunkarde nor adulterer the chylde is holy by vertue of the couenaunt for one of the parents sakes If they be bothe and yet not obstinate in their synne whereby the church hathe not proceeded to Excommunication them selues being yet of the church their chylde can not nor ought not to be refused To the second question wherein he asketh what if the childe be of Papistes or Heretikes If bothe be Papistes or condenmed heretikes if so be I may distinguishe papistes from heretikes and cutte of from the church then their children can not be receyued because they are not in the couenaunt if eyther of them be faithfull I haue answeared before that they ought to be receyued To the other question wherin he asketh what if they erre in some poynts of matters of faithe If it be but an error and be not in those poynts whych case the foundations of fayth because they still notwythstandyng their error are to be counted amongst the faythfull their children pertaine vnto the promise and therfore to the sacrament of the promise And in the. 193. page he asketh what if the parentes of the chylde bee vnknowne If they be yet if godly men will present it to baptisme with promise of seeing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde for so muche as it is founde in a place where the church is and therefore by lykelyhoode to appertayne vnto some that was of the church I thinke it may be baptysed if the church thinke it good in thys last case Then hee goeth forth in the. 111. page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckned may be baptysed and demaundeth whether a wicked father may haue a good child a papist or heretike father a beleuing child yes verely may they So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe and yet theyr children are not to be receyued vnlesse their fayth doe first appeare by confession But you say the papist and hereticke be baptised and so are not the Iewes and Turkes Their baptisme they being cut of from the church maketh them as much straungers vnto it as was Ismael and Esau which albeit they were circumcysed yet being cast out of the church they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people then those whiche neuer were in the church Now you see the poyson as you terme it which lyeth hyd vnder these wordes and if it be as you say poyson let vs haue some of your triacle In all the rest of the section there is nothing but that which he spake of before only the eldershyp is named which commeth to be entreated of in the next section The reply vnto the three next sections concerning the senyors beginning in the latter end of the. 112. page and holding on vntill the beginning of the. 118. page AS though M. Doctor were at vtter defiance with all good order Methode of wryting that which was geuen hym orderly by the Admonition he hath turned vpsyde downe For where the Admonition speaketh first of the elders then of that which is annexed vnto them which is the dyscipline whereof excommunication is a part consydering that the subiect is in nature before that which is annexed vnto it M. Doctor hath turned it cleane contrary and first speaketh of excommunication and then of the elders I will therefore that the reader may the easelyer vnderstand that which is sayde follow the order of the Admonition and first of all speake of the elders or senyors which ought to be in the church And in speaking of them I must call to remembrance that diuision which I made mention on before that is Of those which haue care and which gouerne the whole congregation some there be which do both teache the word and gouerne also some which doe not teach but only gouerne and be ayders in the gouernment vnto those which doe teache Thys dyuision is most manifestly set forth in the Epistle vnto Timothe where he sayeth the elders which rule well are worthy of double honor and especially those which labor in the word and doctryne where he maketh by playne and expresse words two sorts of elders the one which doth both gouerne and teach the other which gouerneth only These therefore are the senyors which are meant whose office is in helping the pastor or byshop in the gouernement of that particulare church where they be placed pastors and elders Now that it is knowne what these senyors be in entreating of them I am content to answere M. Doctor three requestes which he maketh in the. 125. page where he desireth that one would do so much for hym as first to shew that these senyors were in euery congregation secondarely he will haue it proued that thys regiment is perpetual and not to be altered last of all he desireth to know whether these senyors were lay men and not rather mynisters of the word and byshops Thys last is a fond request and suche as is alredy answeared but he must be followed For the first therefore which is that there were segnyors in euery congregation although M. Doctor in the 114. page and in the. 132. page constrayned by Ambose authoritie confesseth it in playne wordes yet because he requireth it to be shewed and maketh a iest at those places which are alledged out of the scripture to proue it some thing muste be spoken thereof The first place is in the Actes whych is that Paule Barnabas dyd appoynte by election elders in euerie congregation but it is not lyke they dyd appoynt dyuers ministers or bishops which preached in euery congregation which were not to be had for suche a number of congregations as were then to bee preached vnto therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached other elders which dyd only in gouernment assist the pastors which preached And what should we follow comectures heere when S. Paule doth in the place before alledged declare what these elders are But M. Doctor sayeth that there is no mention made of the office of such an elder therefore that place maketh nothing to proue that there shoulde be such elders in euery congregation
that they had also some care to prouide for the poore and that they were such as dyd mynister the sacramentes And in an other Councell they haue authoritie geuen them to make subdeacons exorcists and readers I know thys was a corruption of the mynistery but yet all men see how Maister Doctor looketh as it were a farre of vpon things and therefore taketh a man for a molehill when he would make vs beleeue that these were chauncelors c. In the. 125. page to the admonition desyring that these may be remoued and the eldershyp establyshed according to Gods order M. Doctor aunswereth that that were to place in stede of wise and discrete men vnlearned ignorant and vnapt to rule Let Maister Doctor take heede least in alowing so well of the popishe ceremonies not only as tollerable but as fitte and then acquainting hym selfe with the papistes maner of speaking in saying that the people be ignoraunt and vnlearned he fal or ouer he be aware into some worse thing Moses in Deuteronomie and Salomon in hys prouerbes place the principall wisedome in keeking Gods commaundementes and in fearing god And Dauid sayeth that the secretes and the priuy councell of the Lord is knowen to those which feare hym and I haue shewed out of S. Paule that he geueth to the spirituall man great discretion and iudgement of things If therefore there be in euery church which feare God and keepe hys commaundementes there are both wise and learned discrete men and therefore not to be spoken of so contemptuously as M. Doctor speaketh And God be praysed there are numbers in the church that are hable to be teachers vnto most of the chauncelors in any matter perteyning to the church and are hable to geue a ryper iudgement in any ecclesiastical matter then the most part of them can And besides that the choysest are to be taken to thys office thys ought not to be forgotten that seeing good successe of thinges depend vppon the blessing of God and that blessing followeth the church when the Lordes order is kept simple men which carry no great countenaunce or shew will vndoubtedly doe more good vnto the church hauing a lawfull calling then those of great port whiche haue no such calling In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbyshoppes Courte necessary but bringeth no reason and further confesseth hym selfe ignoraunt of the estate of it and therefore I know not from whence that good opynion of hys shoulde come onlesse it be from thence that he lyketh of all things be they neuer so euill whych the admonition missyketh The rest which M. D. hath of thys matter is nothing else but great and high wordes And as for the Canon law it is knowen what a stroke it beareth with vs and that a few cases excepted it remayneth in her former effect To the sections beginning in the. 118. page and holding on vntill the. 123. page It was before shewed that of the gouernoures of the church there were some whose charge pertayned vnto the whole church of the which we haue spoken some other whose charges extend but to a part of the church that is vnto the poore and these are the deacons And as in the former part I shewed there were two kindes so in this latter part the same is to be noted that of those whose charge was ouer the poore some had charge ouer all the poore of the church as those which are called deacons some had charge ouer the poore straungers and those poore which were sicke only and those S. Paule calleth in one place Dyaconisses and in an other place widdowes For the deacons dyd distribute vnto the necessyties as well of the poore straungers and the sicke poore as vnto the other poore of the church And the widdowes did employ their laboures to the washing of the feete of the straungers and attending vppon the poore which were sicke and had no frendes to keepe them First I will speake of the deacons whereas M. Doctor cryeth out of daiying with the scriptures for alledging the. 8. verse of the twelfth vnto the Romaines to proue deacons affirming that there is no worde of them Truely I can fynde no wordes to set forth thys so grosse ignorance And had it not bene enough for M. Doctor to haue vttered thys ignorance but he must also with an outery proclayme it and as it were spred the banner of it What doe these wordes note he that distributeth in simplicitie but the office of the deaconshyp For in that place S. Paule reckeneth vp all the ordinary and perpetuall offices of the church as the office of the doctor of the pastor of the deacon of the elder and leaueth not out so muche as the widdow which he comprehendeth in these wordes shewing mercy If the authors of the Admonition doe daily with the scriptures in thys place surely Maister Caluin M Beza M. Bucer Peter Martyr c. doe dally with them And shall all these be esteemed to play with the scriptures and M. Doctor only to handle them seriously And as M. Doctors ignorance appeareth in thys place so hys mynde not desirous of the truth but secking to cauill doth as manifestly shew it selfe For all men see that the admonition alledgeth not the place to the Tessalonians to proue the office of deacons but to shew that idle vagavondes might not haue any of that reliefe which belongeth vnto those which bee poore in deede which thing appeareth both by the placing of the quotation ouer agaynst that allegation by the letter which directeth therunto And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the office of the deacons is not only to prouide for the poore but also to preach and mynister the sacramentes I haue shewed before that it doth not appertayne vnto them to doe eyther the one or the other For the proofe whereof thys place of the Romaines quoted by the admonition is very fit most proper For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which not contenting themselues with their owne vocatiōs dyd breake into that which appertayned vnto others as if the hand should take vpon it the office of the eye or of some other member of the body therfore S. Paule doth as it were bound point the limites of euery office in the church so placeth the deacons office only in the preuysion for the poore Thys one thing I will adde to that matter that if the apostles whiche hadde suche excellent and passing gyftes dyd fynde them selues preaching of the woorde and attending to prayer not able to prouyde for the poore but thought it necessarye to dyscharge them selues of that offyce to the ende they myght doe the other effectually and fruitefully hee that shall doe both now must eyther doe none well and profitably or else hee must haue greater giftes then the Apostles had The seconde poynt is touching that there were deacons in euery churche which is well proued of the admonition both by the place of the
Phillippyans and of the Actes for although it be not there sayd that the deacons were in euery church yet for so muche as the same vse of them was in all churches which was in Ierusalem at Philippos and for that the Apostles as hath bene before touched laboring after the vniformitie of the church ordeyned the same officers in all churches the proofe of one is the proofe of all and the shewing that there were deacōs in one church is the shewing in all The place which they alledge out of the first to Timothe is of all other most proper for S. Paule there describing not how the church of Ephesus but simply and generally how the church must be gouerned reckneth there the order of deacons Whereunto may be added the contynuall practise of the church long after the Apostles times which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these words the byshop elders and deacons of such a church and vnto the byshop elders and deacons of such a church And by that it is so often times sayd in the councelles where the churches assembled y there were so many byshops so many elders so many deacons The thirde poynt in thys deaconship is whether it be a necessary office in the church or for a tyme only which controuersy shoulde not haue bene if M. Doctors english tong had bene agreable with hys latin For in a certayne latin pamphlet of hys whereof I spake before he maketh the deaconship a necessary office and such as ought not to be taken out of the church here he singeth a nother song There because he thought the necessitie of the deacon made for hym he wold nedes haue deacons here because it maketh agaynst hym he sayth there is no neede of them wherby appeareth how small cause there is that M. Doctor should vpbrayde the authors of the admonition with mutability and discord with them selues But that thys office is durable and perpetuall it may appeare by that which I haue alledged before out of the sixt of Timothe for the necessitie of elders for the argumentes serue to proue the necessitie of those orders which are there set forth whereof the deacon is one And where as M. Doctor sayth that euery church is not hable to fynde a curate as he termeth hym and a deacon I haue before shewed intreating of the senyors that the churches in the Apostles tymes might best haue sayd thys being poore and persecuted althoughe I see not why the church may not haue a deacon or deacons if moe be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors There remayneth to speake of the widdowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of 60. yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill which might rise by slaunderous tonges if they had bene yonger These as they were norished at the charges of the church being poore so dyd they serue the church in attending vpon poore strangers and the poore which were sicke in the church whereof they were widdowes Now although there is not so great vse of these widdowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein thys order of widdowes was instituted part of the which necessity grew both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution by the great heate of those east countries whereupon the washing supplyng of their feete was required yet for so much as there are poore which are sicke in euery church I doe not see how a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendance of them in their sicknes other infirmities then thys which S. Paule appoynteth that there shuld be if there can be any gotten godly poore widdowes of the age which S. Paule appoynteth which should attend vpon such For if there be any such poore widdowes of that age destitute of all friendes it is manifest that they must needes liue of the charge of the church seing they must nedes do so it is better they shuld do some duety for it vnto the church agayne thē the church should be at a new charge to finde others to attend vpon those which are sicke destitute of keepers seing that there can be none so fit for that purpose as those women which S. Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that if such may be gotten we ought also to kepe that order of widowes in the church still I know y there be lerned men which thinke otherwise but I stand vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vppon the opynions of men be they neuer so well learned And if the matter also shoulde be tryed by the iudgement of men I am able to shew the iudgement of as learned as thys age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widdowes is perpetuall and ought to be where it may be had and where such widdowes are founde In deede they are more rare now then in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those which had the gift of continency dyd abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were driuen to flye then the estate of those which were maryed Vnto all the rest vntill the ende of the first part of the admonition I haue answered alredy Yet there is a poynt or two which I must touch wherof the first is in the. 126. page where he would beare men in hand that the authors of the admonition and some other of theyr mynde would shut out the cyuill magistrate and the Prince from all authoritie in Ecclesiastical matters which surmise although I see it is not so much because eyther he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing as because he meaneth heereby to lay a bayte to entrappe with all thinking that where he maketh no conscience to geue he careth not what authority to Princes we will be loth to geue more then the word of God will permit wherby he hopeth to draw vs into displeasure with the Prince yet for because he shall vnderstande we norish no opynions secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly and for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in thys part which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite but is lymitted by the word of God and of whome we are perswaded that as her maiesty knoweth so shee will not vnwillingly heare the truth in thys behalfe these things I say being considered I answere in the name of the authors of the admonition and those some other which you speake of that the Prince and cyuill magistrate hath to see that the lawes of God touching hys worshippe and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed dewly obserued to se that euery Ecclesiasticall person do that office whereunto he is